New SBD-AUD Matrix of Feb 16 Residency now avaialble

[Moe_Syzlak]

The other thing to point out here is that every professionally done live recording that I know of has included some ambient room sound in the mix. Throw on Kicking Television, Cheap Trick at Budokan, those live Pixies recordings from the reunion tour--they all have the equivalent of an audience recording mixed in.

I think there is a big difference here though (although as previously stated, I generally would prefer no aud mixed in at the SBD either). First, most the time, the audience will be tracked up in between songs and tracked down during the songs. This gives crowd reaction without the crowd cluttering up the sound during the songs. Two, having a mic at the soundboard or on stage facing the crowd is very different from an audience member recording, IMO. In an aud recording you are recording FOR the music and the room/crowd is "in the way" (for lack of a better phrase) of getting the cleanest sound. When an a mic is dedicated to the crowd noise that can be mixed in without as much actual music (recorded from a long distance) muddying up the sound and can be mixed in independently of the clarity of each (sbd-recorded) instrument. The result is what people STRIVE for with matrix mixes (again IMO), but rarely, if ever achieve. I think this particular matrix is very good, but you can still hear the "overtones" (again for lack of a better word) of the distance between the mic and music coming through, particularly in the drums and bass.

 

I've said this a few times (and even via Private Message to yltfan), but please don't take my enjoyment of this discussion as criticism of this matrix mix. I have listened to it a ton and really enjoy it!

 

ETA: So, I just listened to the 4/21/07 Sydney sbd (I don't know that recording's history), but while the mix might not be perfect, it is good trade-off for me to have the crispness and presence of the instruments. I'm curious if those of you who have that show prefer this one to it (as far as sound quality goes).

 

ETA2: Ok, so I did a back-and-forth sound comparison for the woman and SHE prefers the matrix. Maybe it is just my hearing patterns because for me there is no comparison; the Sydney sbd is MUCH better to my ears. Interesting.

[Edie]

The other thing to point out here is that every professionally done live recording that I know of has included some ambient room sound in the mix. Throw on Kicking Television, Cheap Trick at Budokan, those live Pixies recordings from the reunion tour--they all have the equivalent of an audience recording mixed in.

 

I recall when OiNK had the rule that no AUD sourced recordings could be upped, which included matricies -- people made the same argument as above to no avail

[keeprighton2]

That doesn't mean it sounds good when reproduced on your stereo. Live sound is a very different beast from studio-mixed sound. Sometimes in a live setting you have to jack something up higher (or down lower) to even out the sound in the room. It may sound good to someone standing there, but on tape it can be pretty awful.

 

I've heard a lot of soundboard patches where the vocals were unbearably high in the mix, or there was very little bass, or any number of other issues. These weren't necessarily mistakes by the sound guy -- he was mixing for the live audience, not the home listener.

 

Some of the Led Zeppelin soundboards I've heard are horrible in this respect ... and there's little or no crowd noise or reverb, so it makes for pretty dry listening -- the audio equivalent of stale bread.

 

So why do the Wilco webcasts sound so good? (I assume they're simply a patch from the board) No lack of bass/guitars whatever - and the vocals are just fine, you can even hear the audience!

[cryptique]

So why do the Wilco webcasts sound so good? (I assume they're simply a patch from the board) No lack of bass/guitars whatever - and the vocals are just fine, you can even hear the audience!

They likely run a second live mix that includes mics pointed at the audience ... so it's basically a "live matrix."

 

One mix for the house sound, one for the webcast.

[paddy3001]

Why not just put out the soundboard version too? Then people can download whatever version (matrix or sbd) they prefer.

[ponch1028]

Why not just put out the soundboard version too? Then people can download whatever version (matrix or sbd) they prefer.

 

I recall yltfan saying previously that he agreed to only released the SBD in a matrix mix. If that was the stipulation in order to get the soundboard, then he should not whatsoever release the soundboard version.

[yltfan]

The guy who did this mix (and does great work on lots of my recordings) sent me some comments, and encouraged me to share them.

 

Here's what he has to say:

 

"You don

[Moe_Syzlak]

Well, huh. I guess all the disclaimers I posted didn't work. Once again, I think this matrix mix is very well done. I was NEVER criticizing the job that was done with it. My discussion points were merely that I tend to prefer straight sbd over matrix mixes. Period. I concede that I haven't heard this sbd so I have no way to do a straight comparison, but I have heard MANY sbd sources and their matrix mix siblings and, to my admittedly unique ears, I always prefer the sbd. The sbds that exist that have poor mixes are never "fixed" enough with aud mixed in for me. In those cases I simply do without. There is enough good music out there! So, I'm sorry if any of comments offended. They weren't intended to criticize as I think an excellent job was done here. I simply enjoyed the discussion around aud vs. sbd vs. matrix.

[yltfan]

I should have mentioned that he is not on this board, has not read all the comments, including your disclaimers. I'll admit that he comes off a bit gruff on this, but I thought that his comments were relevant, so I dropped them in here.

 

Like him, I get a bit defensive on this stuff. We put of lot of effort into this, from getting to the show way early and arguing with security guards, investing money into the equipment, spending lots of time transferring and editing recordings, getting them up online, etc. It's a hassle, so even the politest of feedback is likely to inspire some snappiness. For me personally, I appreciate feedback--as long as it's constructive and comes from a place of appreciation. And Moe, while I totally disagree with you on what sounds better, I am not offended by your comments, and I encourage you to keep sharing your opinions.

[froggie]

> Some of the Led Zeppelin soundboards I've heard are horrible in this respect

 

thats the main reason why the 1980 tour is looked down upon. most shows are sterile soundboards. the are a few audience recordings that change peoples minds real quick. it was very underrated. brussels, rotterdam, and i think munich are the audience recordings circulating.

 

 

> So, I just listened to the 4/21/07 Sydney sbd (I don't know that recording's history), but while the mix might not be perfect,

> it is good trade-off for me to have the crispness and presence of the instruments

 

if you like the soundboard, you should have been there!. i was sort of let down by the webcast version even thought i (and we) loved the show the most. pity there isnt a matrix for that one to also capture more of the audience. there was a great vibe - Jesus ect. stood out from the rest

[uncool2pillow]

I am a novice on this subject, but I was there. I was standing about 10 "rows" back about in front of John. I could barely hear the horns on Andrew's violin. Those come through very strong in the matrix. I am very pleased with it!

[ckc]

As a taper that has spent hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars on this hobby and goes out of my way to share with the Wilco community every recording I have ever made, the assholes in this thread who are complaining about this matrix can kiss future recordings goodbye if you keep this up.

[paddy3001]

I recall yltfan saying previously that he agreed to only released the SBD in a matrix mix. If that was the stipulation in order to get the soundboard, then he should not whatsoever release the soundboard version.

 

Thanks. Duly noted. If that was the stipulation laid down by the Wilco peeps, then I absolutely agree that the sbd version shouldn't be released.

 

People can argue about sbd versus aud recordings till they're blue in the face. It's not gonna change any minds, and I, for one, am just happy that there's a matrix of the Feb 16th show out there.

[yltfan]

For anyone who still cares about this discussion, there are some pretty cool samples that compare SBD vs matrix on this Dime post:

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=191274

 

Check out Sample 3 for the SBD and Matrix comparison:

 

Sample_3

This sample gives you a comparison of the SBD and the Matrix

and how the Matrix helps bring Jerry Garcia back into the mix.

 

You'll hear a 15 second clip of the SBD, followed by a 15 second

of the Matrix. 15 seconds SBD, 15 seconds Matrix and so on.

Note how Garcia enters into the mix at approx +3db over the SBD.

[iarooster]

There was a similar thing on the Dime a while back (maybe it's still live, I'm not going to take the time to look)-- a Pink Floyd DSOTM show that was an FM/aud (actually two aud sources, if I remember right). The FM was quite dry and sterile and adding the a bit of the audience sources improved the show immensely.

[yltfan]

As a taper that has spent hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars on this hobby and goes out of my way to share with the Wilco community every recording I have ever made, the assholes in this thread who are complaining about this matrix can kiss future recordings goodbye if you keep this up.

 

Just to respond here, it's going to take a lot more for me to feel frustrated enough to stop sharing. I don't mind criticism, especially if it's constructive. And I do like feedback on my recordings, as I'm always trying to make them sound better. I think all of the feedback here has been fine. Some people prefer straight soundboard tapes, and that's fine. People disagree about all kinds of things--it's only when people starting attacking each other that it gets problematic.

 

The only time I came close to changing my mind on sharing a recording was when people started getting real nasty, demanding it right away, getting mad when I took a little longer than planned, and being real hostile when I offered my opinions on the performance. I was pretty close to just taking my tape and going home--but I had promised to share it, and most people were being cool. But a few people almost ruined it. So, it does make sense to be nice to us hard-working tapers. But I'm not going to stop sharing because of the type of comments I'm seeing here.

[IcculusDC]

I said it once I will say it again -- this matrix recording sounds great. I am VERY picky about sound quality for live shows and this is top notch.

 

Well done YLTFAN and thanks a bunch for doing this...It is really appreciated. There have been many shows that get removed off of my ipod when they don't meet sound quality standards after a few listens -- this one is there to say.

 

I will take a well mixed matrix any day over a straight SBD recording. Much more full dynamic sound typically.

[chrisd]

eh, haven't read through the entire thread. but i just got this off etree and am on to muzzle of bees. it sounds amazing. many thanks

[Moe_Syzlak]

Just to respond here, it's going to take a lot more for me to feel frustrated enough to stop sharing. I don't mind criticism, especially if it's constructive. And I do like feedback on my recordings, as I'm always trying to make them sound better. I think all of the feedback here has been fine. Some people prefer straight soundboard tapes, and that's fine. People disagree about all kinds of things--it's only when people starting attacking each other that it gets problematic.

 

The only time I came close to changing my mind on sharing a recording was when people started getting real nasty, demanding it right away, getting mad when I took a little longer than planned, and being real hostile when I offered my opinions on the performance. I was pretty close to just taking my tape and going home--but I had promised to share it, and most people were being cool. But a few people almost ruined it. So, it does make sense to be nice to us hard-working tapers. But I'm not going to stop sharing because of the type of comments I'm seeing here.

Cool. I feel as though this discussion should have been in its own thread so there was no confusion. I LIKE this matrix and was never complaining about anything (other than, perhaps, the reading comprehension skills of those that insisted otherwise). Your point above about preferences is all this is about for me, and curiosity about those preferences and what exactly people hear. Because, as I have said, my hearing is somewhat unique and I'm sure that influences my preferences for sbd only. Anyway, I listened to that GD sample 3 and I do hear Jerry louder in the mix in the matrix, but I have to say that, to me, none of it sounds "good." It is a poorly mixed sbd recording to begin with and while the aud may even out the sound a bit, it is still something I wouldn't want to listen to (although obviously many DO want to listen to it). That really emphasizes the fact that either the Residency Matrix is just a phenomenal job or the original sbd mix was much much better (or, most likely, both). Keep doing what you're doing and know that even those of us with screwed up hearing think you're doing a great job!