New Election 2008 thread

[mountain bed]

Remember -- he was a military guy duty-bound to follow the word of his commander-in-chief. This overriding principle eventually was his undoing on this matter. He must have been extremely conflicted.

[Gobias Industries]

Hell yeah, it's a day before we declare our independence. We are ready for a revolution!

 

You say you want a revolution

Well, you know

We all want to change the world.

You tell me that it's evolution,

Well, you know

We all want to change the world.

 

But when you talk about destruction,

Don't you know that you can count me out. In.

 

Don't you know it's going to be all right,

all right, all right.

 

You say you got a real solution

Well, you know

We'd all love to see the plan.

You ask me for a contribution,

Well, you know

We all do what we can.

 

If you want money for people with minds that hate,

All I can tell you is brother you have to wait.

 

Don't you know it's going to be all right,

all right, all right.

 

You say you'll change a constitution

Well, you know

We'd all love to change your head.

You tell me it's the institution,

Well, you know

You better free your mind instead.

 

But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao,

You ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow.

 

Don't you know it's going to be all right,

all right, all right.

[MattZ]

His mind-set was certainly military, not civilian. This had to have some bearing on him, especially where war was concerned.

 

At any rate, I don't believe he belongs in the neocon hall of shame with Perl, Wolfowitz, Cheney etc. Not to mention Rumsfeld.

 

Well, if his mindset was military, not civilian, he didn't do his job properly. So I dont know that he should get credit for that. That being said, I completely agree with you that he does not belong in the same company as the others you mentioned. As I said above, I'm not trying to pile on Powell. Just observing that he gets a bit too much slack in my eyes.

 

As a hypothetical, and I know that it's useless but hey it's fun and this is a message board... What do folks think would have happened if Powell refused to go before the UN? And refused to be a part of the Administration? What would have happened if he resigned? Would we be in Iraq? I have to think we would be, but I think a lot of those Democrats that voted to authorize wouldn't have if he wasn't along for the ride.

[Edie]

I think he would have though those actions to be mutinous -- so it almost never would have happened unless he knew what he knows now. Remember, he was lied to along with the rest of us.

[sweetheart-mine]

Well, if his mindset was military, not civilian, he didn't do his job properly. So I dont know that he should get credit for that. That being said, I completely agree with you that he does not belong in the same company as the others you mentioned. As I said above, I'm not trying to pile on Powell. Just observing that he gets a bit too much slack in my eyes.

 

As a hypothetical, and I know that it's useless but hey it's fun and this is a message board... What do folks think would have happened if Powell refused to go before the UN? And refused to be a part of the Administration? What would have happened if he resigned? Would we be in Iraq? I have to think we would be, but I think a lot of those Democrats that voted to authorize wouldn't have if he wasn't along for the ride.

edie makes a good point in that his reluctance to speak out is understandable to a certain extent, and i'm sure he did experience a lot of angst over it. but, like matt, i believe his first loyalty as secretary of state should have been to the people of this country, not to the going-wayward government and not to the military. he didn't convince me back then, though i did respect him at the time, so what he said gave me slight pause.

 

i am very tired of the retrospective memoir-type books about this war and this administration. what difference can they make now? to me the people who write such books, or step forward too late in some other public way, did damage to our constitution, to the people, to the government, to the people of iraq, to the world -- even if it had been only by omission (which in most cases it wasn't), the damage was done. i see them as being somewhat like people who see someone being knifed and attacked in the street . . . and just stand there, not calling 911, not shouting about what they're seeing, not doing anything at all. they don't belong in the same neocon category as the actual neocons, but they did let multiple, profound damages occur and said nothing about it until it was too late.

[Good Old Neon]

I think he would have though those actions to be mutinous -- so it almost never would have happened unless he knew what he knows now. Remember, he was lied to along with the rest of us.

 

I wouldn

[bjorn_skurj]

Well, if his mindset was military, not civilian, he didn't do his job properly. So I dont know that he should get credit for that. That being said, I completely agree with you that he does not belong in the same company as the others you mentioned. As I said above, I'm not trying to pile on Powell. Just observing that he gets a bit too much slack in my eyes.

 

As a hypothetical, and I know that it's useless but hey it's fun and this is a message board... What do folks think would have happened if Powell refused to go before the UN? And refused to be a part of the Administration? What would have happened if he resigned? Would we be in Iraq? I have to think we would be, but I think a lot of those Democrats that voted to authorize wouldn't have if he wasn't along for the ride.

Maybe it would have stopped the war, but probably not. Maybe it would have brought more scrutiny to the planning for the occupation, but the planning was most probably not available, or even maybe didn't exist at that time, for scrutiny. Maybe it would have given those of us in the media who knew in our bones that this war was bullshit but were too scared to say anything about it the courage to go into full WTF mode. I don't know. I have always been gobsmacked by what appears to be the fact that Bush and them actually believed they would find WMD and that we would be welcomed as liberators. I guess I never gave them enough credit for their stupidity. Dude went to YALE. Isn't that, like, a good school?

[Moe_Syzlak]

Has anyone seen Fog of War? I wonder if Powell is feeling as much regret as McNamara in that film.

[bjorn_skurj]

Has anyone seen Fog of War? I wonder if Powell is feeling as much regret as McNamara in that film.

I that movie.

[EL the Famous]

And if you was politically active in 2002 and proposed opposing the war, mistaking propaganda for patriotism, you were vilified. Not blacklisted. Imagine if you were an American of Middle Eastern decent? How many innocent people are there in Guantanamo, who are there without formal charges?

 

These are two ads that didn't make that, as the story notes, weren't finalists. You boast Moveon.org but the story was from the Washington Times and notes the Republicans posted the ads on their pages to pump them up for political gain among conservatives. Its a debacle because some republicans dragged it out and made an issue about it for their benefit. Two words: Swift boat. What sort of civil approach was that?

 

Look your basic banter comes down to the fact that some people's moral outrage -- which you agree with -- is too much, according to you. After surviving the past 8 years with grave doubts about the next year alone, what the hell are you doing to make things better? You come in and make blunt attacks, try to stir up trouble then you're off to another thread to gossip about how you really got the posters and how wrong they are. Heaven forbid someone should invade your inner circle and oppose you there.

 

What the fuck are you doing politically? When I responded about that you had no coment, you just back up and come up with another supposed civil response that is only to bait for another attack. Threat after thread, throughout this board are countless examples of you and a few other gutless assholes who impose your childishness on others.

 

What are you doing about these dark times? Oh, yeah, you're hiding behind an anonymous name, posting assinine comments on a public board that you've set yourself up as judge and jury of what can be said and what can't. What indignancies are allowable, attacking terms when it suits you, dispeling it when it doesn't.

 

Do these comments get under your skin because you're just as guilty of such socialpathic behavior.

 

You you don't have something civil to say craw back into your hole and shut the fuck up.

 

i'd take this to PM, but C.T. sent me one yesterday and when i tried to respond: 'This member has chosen not to be contactable by the board Messenger'. rather than let my original flippant response hang out there, here is my attempt at more civil response:

 

i think any villification and/or blacklisting towards any politician or otherwise over their opposition to the war is unjust. that said, villification...blacklisting...even incarceration...isn't the same as a gas chamber. i'd also submit, that someone (even though they weren't an elected official at the time) who vocally opposed the war is now a major contender for the presidency of the united states. i don't support what's going on at gitmo or unjust persecution of americans of middle eastern decent, never have and i'm not sure what that even has to do w/ bush/hitler comparisons.

 

the point of me posting that article, was not to rag on moveon.org, but that even The Simon Wiesenthal Center, the Anti-Defamation League and the American Jewish Congress find the whole bush = hitler thing insulting and counterproductive. i fully agree that republicans using it to their benefit and the whole swift boat thing to be equally as insulting and counterproductive, never said otherwise.

 

my basic banter has nothing to do w/ the fact that some people's moral outrage is too much. it's more so how they choose to communicate it in a way that alienates versus educates. people of both wings do it, but maybe i am harder on those who i share the same level of outrage on certain issues with...because it seems to be hurting more than helping. that's all. what the hell am i doing to make things better? outside of campaigning for/financially supporting local and national officials i feel can make a difference as much as my time allows...i'm imploring for political discourse based more on legitimate fact/issues than emotion. also, outside of politics, 9/10 my issue is not w/ what a certain person believes or doesn't, it's when said belief comes at the expense of insulting someone who isn't even here to defend themselves.

 

When you responded about you are doing politically, you're right...i had no coment and i should have. good for you. i mean that w/out an ounce of sarcasm. you are way more tangibley involved than i. outside of my level of involvement above, my poltical involvement has been on more of a local level on campaigns for local school board officials and referendums. i don't have much time for anything else...which is no excuse, it's just a reality.

 

as far as everything else goes...in my years of posting on this board, i'm hardly anonymous. if anything, i'm an open book. i've met numerous folks from this board in person and anybody can tell you i've been more than voiciferus on my political viewpoints. i can't type very well, i belive in god, i like comic books, i'm a registered democrat, i like big boobs, have a wonderful wife and two sons, think the cult is one of the most underrated rock bands of all time, etc. i have people on here i'm friends with or, at least identify with in a major way...hardly an 'inner circle' of any sort. alot of the 'indignancies' i throw myself into on here are ones that cross the line on a personal level...attacks on those who believe in god, unjust stereotyping of certain groups i may fall into and any other objectionable highhorseisms that somehow rope me into their example by association.

 

i'm far from perfect, can definitely be crass, can ride a mean highorse myself, but i'd hardly consider myself a sociopath. you seem to want to focus only on my smartass posts in the middle of this thread, but i've also produced plenty of other grounded in legitimate dialogue. i've never called you a name of any sort, yet while you seem to think this thread went downhill when you were called a 'cunt' after someone responded to your assertion that anybody who voted for bush shouldn't be able to look at themselves in a mirror and has the same amount of blood on their hands as those who took us to war...it's okay to refer to me as a child, a gutless asshole, a sociopath and, in general, someone who just 'fuck off'. i've never hit the report button in my life and won't start now...this has been kevin dunham's non-anoynmous response.

[Guest Jules]

What are you doing about these dark times?

fearmonger

[Good Old Neon]

Every time I think I

[bjorn_skurj]

Anyone who serves on a school board has done their civic duty, plus one.

[Edie]

i like big boobs

 

[Guest Jules]

yet while you seem to think this thread went downhill when you were called a 'cunt' after someone responded to your assertion that anybody who voted for bush shouldn't be able to look at themselves in a mirror and has the same amount of blood on their hands as those who took us to war...

for the record, it was "fucking twat".

 

Thanks.

[kidsmoke]

This particular thread has gone on long enough and has degenerated badly, so I'm closing it. Let's start a new thread and refrain from personal attacks.