MrRain422 Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 The Iraqi government wants a timetable for withdrawal of American forces. So what's the justification for staying now? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Good Old Neon Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Though, of course, we'll never admit as much. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
viatroy Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 that cat's been out of the bag (I prefer to get my news offshore these days) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sweetheart-mine Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 The Iraqi government wants a timetable for withdrawal of American forces. So what's the justification for staying now?this is a good question any day, and today i can pass along a first-person perspective from a discussion with a navy pilot staying next door to us for a week on vacation with his family. he is an iraq war veteran, having returned this past april from his second iraq stint, which lasted for a little over a year. he is in his thirties, and until now has considered himself a career military man. and he may still be, but he is disgusted with this war. my husband and i knew he'd recently returned from iraq and were making a point of not bringing it up with him, to give him his privacy and not step on any sensitivities. however, during what started out as minor neighborhood conversation this morning, he himself brought up the subject of iraq and his experiences there. he spoke almost nonstop, with only a couple of questions from us. here are snippets of what he volunteered: his years in iraq have been spent in baghdad and in anwar province (the desert area west of baghdad), and his assignments have mostly entailed working with the iraqi army and some u.s. army personnel to build u.s. military bases (yep) and, to a lesser extent, to rebuild schools that have been bombed out. he says that the iraqis want the u.s. out of there. he says that as soon as his unit completes construction of parts of a base or of a school, the iraqis ransack the place and take whatever they need, such as copper wiring and so on, leaving the place unfit for use. he says, "iraq is a terrible mess." he says that hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent by his unit alone during his most recent stint on this "futile" exercise. his word, "futile." he emphasized that it is futile, futile, futile. he also says that "everyone is corrupt -- u.s. contractors, iraqis, everyone." he says stealing goes on day after day by all involved. he said four times (my husband counted): "we are in it for the OIL." he says that his position as a navy pilot is basically a "middle-management" type of position. he believes people in his position are best situated to view what is going on with any objectivity because (1) the younger u.s. army people are forced to appear "gung-ho" because they are the ones getting shot at and bombed daily and thus having to continue to fight, and (2) the military decision-makers over him can't (or choose not to) speak out against what they see as a hopeless and wrong situation because they are older, longtime career military men, and they would lose their careers. just one person, i know, but a person better able to provide a close-up picture of what's going on there than any politician, war protester, warmonger, scholar, or average citizen/voter here in the u.s. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Good Old Neon Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 that cat's been out of the bag (I prefer to get my news offshore these days) True enough, and has been for some time. Unfortunately, in this country, it's still taboo to admit as much. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/200.../02/974014.aspx And what is also not spoken of in the mainstream media, is how Iraq's oil, our control of it and our continued presence in Iraq will play out regardless of who is elected, Obama or no Obama. It is simply too important a resource, too hard fought for to simply walk away - because if we do, one way or another, someone else will step in to take our place. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
viatroy Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 It's not rocket science -- with China and India coming up, we had to secure the oil first. Next up -- Africa and South America. But our gov't has weakened our ability to withstand the inevitable coming face off -- politically, economically, and morally. I'm glad I'm not going to be here in 50 years, and I wish my progeny well. I want to like Obama because I hoped he'd be different, but the sad fact is the two party system has been irretrievably corrupted by monied interests. Dems only give slightly more of a damn for the common good than the Reps. Anyone who makes it to this level has been annointed -- witness Obama's rapid and shameless veer to the right. Maybe if everybody in the US who had even an inkling of voting for an independent did it, we'd stand a chance. It's class warfare, folks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Good Old Neon Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 It's not rocket science -- with China and India coming up, we had to secure the oil first. Next up -- Africa and South America. But our gov't has weakened our ability to withstand the inevitable coming face off -- politically, economically, and morally. I'm glad I'm not going to be here in 50 years, and I wish my progeny well. I want to like Obama because I hoped he'd be different, but the sad fact is the two party system has been irretrievably corrupted by monied interests. Dems only give slightly more of a damn for the common good than the Reps. Anyone who makes it to this level has been annointed -- witness Obama's rapid and shameless veer to the right. Maybe if everybody in the US who had even an inkling of voting for an independent did it, we'd stand a chance. It's class warfare, folks. We're in total agreement - well said. The (sort of tragic) irony for me, given the importance of oil, being that it literally fuels civilization as we know it, invading Iraq in an attempt to wrest control of such and important resource from a madman is a much more logical (reasonable?) justification than those that were given, wmd's, human rights abuses, 9/11, etc. Which is not to say I necessarily agree with that reasoning - but it beats lying, which only creates other reasons for continuing the lie, making it ever more difficult to discuss the real Quote Link to post Share on other sites
remphish1 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 The Iraqi government wants a timetable for withdrawal of American forces. So what's the justification for staying now? I think some "mostly democrats" have been asking for a timetable to withdraw for years! Also on a similar note congressional approval rating is at 9%! http://news.yahoo.com/s/rasmussen/20080708...ongress20080708 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted July 9, 2008 Author Share Posted July 9, 2008 Right, and many Republicans have said that we're there at the invitation of the Iraqi government, and that if they wanted us to leave, we would. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LouieB Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 We ain't going anywhere..... LouieB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
remphish1 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 We ain't going anywhere..... LouieB Yeah probably true....anyway I thought I would share my favorite argument thus far to stay in Iraq... "It would be dangerous to withdraw troops from Iraq" Hmmm but I guess it is not dangerous to stay in? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MattZ Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I agree with LouieB but I would have used a different emoticon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted July 9, 2008 Author Share Posted July 9, 2008 I just get frustrated with the logic of a lot of the neocon talking heads on TV every time there is some sort of news from Iraq, whether its positive or negative. If the news is positive -- "The surge is working! We have to stay and keep doing what we're doing!"If the news is negative -- "Things are too volatile there right now to just pull out! We have to stay until it is stable!" So if things are going well, it means we have to stay, and if things are going poorly, it means we have to stay. I just want to know when we will get to leave. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Good Old Neon Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Hmmm but I guess it is not dangerous to stay in? Not when you Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MattZ Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I just get frustrated with the logic They are good at what they do. Real good. Better than we are at what we do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
embiggen Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 "Things are too volatile there right now to just pull out! We have to stay until it is stable!" this is what gets to me. that region of the world has never been "stable" and it never will be "stable." Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fatheadfred Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 that cat's been out of the bag (I prefer to get my news offshore these days) Try this one too http://www.azzaman.com/english/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sweetheart-mine Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 this is what gets to me. that region of the world has never been "stable" and it never will be "stable."we have caused major destabilization there in the last five years. that's what makes the stabilization argument especially laughable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
embiggen Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 we have caused major destabilization there in the last five years. that's what makes the stabilization argument especially laughable. my point is the mideast is instable in the first place. countries and religious sects have been fighting for centuries. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IRememberDBoon Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Dems only give slightly more of a damn for the common good than the Reps. Anyone who makes it to this level has been annointed -- witness Obama's rapid and shameless veer to the right. Maybe if everybody in the US who had even an inkling of voting for an independent did it, we'd stand a chance. It's class warfare, folks. what a load of BS I just get frustrated with the logic of a lot of the neocon talking heads on TV every time there is some sort of news from Iraq, whether its positive or negative. If the news is positive -- "The surge is working! We have to stay and keep doing what we're doing!"If the news is negative -- "Things are too volatile there right now to just pull out! We have to stay until it is stable!" So if things are going well, it means we have to stay, and if things are going poorly, it means we have to stay. I just want to know when we will get to leave. As soon as a Democrat gets in the oval office Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted July 9, 2008 Author Share Posted July 9, 2008 Hopefully. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Good Old Neon Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 what a load of BSAs soon as a Democrat gets in the oval office I would be more prone to agree with this if, on the day Obama is inaugurated, an alternative, renewable, non-carbon based energy source is discovered, one that puts to rest, once and for all and forever, our civilizations dependency on oil. Anything less, and you Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IRememberDBoon Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I would be more prone to agree with this if, on the day Obama is inaugurated, an alternative, renewable, non-carbon based energy source is discovered, one that puts to rest, once and for all and forever, our civilizations dependency on oil. Anything less, and you Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Good Old Neon Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 yeah. im thinking that it wont take long at all to get rid of the internal combustion engine. seriously. Even if a viable alternative to the combustion engine were put in place tomorrow, it would do little to decrease our dependency on oil. Take a look around you, just about every manmade item you own and/or see is in some way petroleum-based. Not including the energy required to bring food to your table, and water to your tap. All of it Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fatheadfred Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 We're in total agreement - well said. The (sort of tragic) irony for me, given the importance of oil, being that it literally fuels civilization as we know it, invading Iraq in an attempt to wrest control of such and important resource from a madman is a much more logical (reasonable?) justification than those that were given, wmd's, human rights abuses, 9/11, etc. Which is not to say I necessarily agree with that reasoning - but it beats lying, which only creates other reasons for continuing the lie, making it ever more difficult to discuss the real Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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