Wilco and atheism

[bobbob1313]

I had that perception back when McCain was polling 11 percent in New Hampshire.

[TheMaker]

Then he must be right!

[bobbob1313]

huh?

[sweetheart-mine]

From what I've seen personally, it wasn't a media creation.

what do you mean by "it"? do you mean the "rock star" label? the minute large crowds started turning out for obama, the pundits applied that label, which usually came across as "don't take this guy seriously." i noticed the media used that label no matter who could be seen in the crowds, including grandmas, grandpas, and babies.

 

if you mean the excitement a whole lot of people felt when obama entered the race, i agree with you that it was no media creation. it was real.

[Spawn's dad]

there really is a politics thread already...unless someone is about to say Obama is equally fucking retarded as the rest of the lot of politcos for believing in god.

[Moe_Syzlak]

Whether it was JFK or Reagan, I for one am happy to have leaders that are charismatic and inspire the populace. Presidents aren't elected to serve the people that voted for them, they are elected to serve the entire country. McCain has done a terrific job of alienating those that would support his opponent. I think those that would say the same thing about Obama are misguided. But to paint all Obama supporters as those that are just caught up in some mania and not fluent in the issues is the same narrow-mindedness that might lead some to paint all those that don't support him as racist. How about this: we all want what's best for the country, we just disagree on what that is and/or how to accomplish it.

[EL the Famous]

 

sooo edgy.

[bjorn_skurj]

Isn't "Piss Christ" on the Internet somewheres?

[EL the Famous]

Isn't "Piss Christ" on the Internet somewheres?

 

is that the one w/ the cat SAYING: 'LOLZ I'M IN YOUR HOUSE OF WORSHIP PEEING ON YOUR CRUCIFIX!!1!'

[Spawn's dad]

I was thinking about this thread and found myself wondering who gets to decide what another needs in their life? And if belief and faith are such bullshit what of AA and other recovery programs?

[ction]

I was thinking about this thread and found myself wondering who gets to decide what another needs in their life? And if belief and faith are such bullshit what of AA and other recovery programs?

 

You should really be on AIM right now. Just sayin'.

[Spawn's dad]

Are you there god? It's me, Margaret.

[caliber66]

Sounds like Gary finally got her period. Yay!

[MattZ]

And if belief and faith are such bullshit what of AA and other recovery programs?

 

Not sure I understand your point here. Do atheists argue that absolutely no good comes out of religion/belief/faith? I think even jnick would be hard pressed to argue that.

[Spawn's dad]

that has been exactly argued

[austrya]

Not sure I understand your point here. Do atheists argue that absolutely no good comes out of religion/belief/faith? I think even jnick would be hard pressed to argue that.

 

Have you asked The Maker?

[bjorn_skurj]

I was thinking about this thread and found myself wondering who gets to decide what another needs in their life? And if belief and faith are such bullshit what of AA and other recovery programs?

People with big enough egos to think they know what's good for somebody else, which includes many of us, at times. (Certainly myself.)

I am sympathetic to the atheists when they argue that religion impinges on their lives via culture and legislation - liquor stores were closed around here on Sundays until a few years ago, for instance, and think of the tax revenue we could get off churches - but I think theistic and atheistic morality-determining-techniques many times come to similar answers.

[MattZ]

Have you asked The Maker?

 

Let's ask TheMaker... TheMaker?

 

I can understand an atheist's position that faith is all a sham, and I can understand the argument that the bad of religions/faiths/etc outweighs the benefits. But along with the collateral damage comes collateral benefit. Even TheMaker has to agree with this. It may not be "worth it" to him, but it's true.

[TheMaker]

Yeah, sure. Hope springs eternal, right? Not faith, mind you - hope. Big difference. And so it stands to reason that in a universe characterized not by the guiding hand of an invisible saviour, but rather capricious acts of great physical violence, good can spring from nearly any scenario. Oskar Schindler, "in darkest light..." and all that jazz.

 

Perhaps it would be more appropriate in this context to mention the legend of Santa Claus, and the joy and hope it stirs in the imaginations of small children. Most would agree that it's all well and good for small kids to believe in such tall tales, primarily because this kind of yarn has the capacity to provide developing minds with so much joy and excitement, but also because children can't reasonably be expected to know any better. At some point prior to adolescence, however, children begin to apply reason to the legend of St. Nick, and they stop believing. Their belief is supplanted by a natural curiosity born of free inquiry, which tells them straight away that Santa Claus cannot possibly exist as he has been described to them. Now, I'm not one of these louts who thinks it's just the most amoral and beastly thing in the world to lie to children about Santa, but a part of me has always found it a bit supercilious to deliberately mislead kids in such a manner. There is something inherently cruel about devising a plan wherein a child is convinced by an adult that a friendly, selfless, benevolent man exists and will reward their good behaviour with gifts every year. And fine, all right, maybe it affords the kid a few years of childish glee, but it also comes equipped with a built-in sense of crushing disappointment when the kid one day finds out that there is no Santa Claus, and that no amount of wishful thinking can alter this reality.

 

Children who still believe in Santa Claus are very much like adults who still believe in god. The key difference between these groups is that the adults who still believe in fairy tales have never chanced to apply free inquiry to the nonsensical babblings of the Bible, the Koran, et al. - not the outlandish physical claims made in these writings, nor the even more fantastical and unprovable metaphysical claims. We are instructed not to blaspheme from a young age. We are told that the word of god is rigid and absolute (regardless of the fact that Christianity has been revised countless times since its inception). In times past, blasphemers were punished through imprisonment, torture, murder, or, as was often the case, a vile and inhuman combination of all three. This is certainly not the case in any western democracy in 2008, but the automatic respect reserved in all quarters for religion runs fast and deep in our society. Churches are insulated from taxation. Their bold proclamations are allowed to take root in congregations numbering in the tens of thousands, regardless of how hateful and intolerable they might seem to rational minds (stop me if you've heard this one: a gay walks into the WTC on September 11th...). A friend of mine who taught in an otherwise pleasant Ohio suburb earlier in the decade complained of the social stigma she faced simply for not going to church on Sunday. In 2008. "Do as we say, do as we do, or risk being marginalized or destroyed" seems to be the message espoused by every cult, and that is certainly true of Christianity and Islam.

 

Anyway... arguing that religion can be a source for good is like insisting that one must continue to take a placebo in order to beat a case of cancer. A placebo is ultimately useless because it's fake, like all religion, not to mention an unnecessary resource. Wouldn't it be far better to devote one's time and energy to seeking out a legitimate cure rather than have to rely on the potential limited psychological benefits of a phony one?

 

If this is really what your argument has come to - "religion might possibly be valid because people are inspired to do good because of its teachings" - then you really don't have an argument at all. The secular world is rooted in truth and the wholesale rejection of myth and superstition. Good and charitable deeds can and should be done in the name of man, rather than in the name of the petty, capricious, vindictive, archaic tribal warlord of a God introduced in the Old Testament and promoted by the New.

 

Any other questions?

[dondoboy]

"The secular world is rooted in truth and the wholesale rejection of myth and superstition." I don't buy that for a minute. If that were the case, we would have to dismiss some damn good writers, artists, and songwriters.

[bobbob1313]

Christ, really? You think telling kids Santa exists is bad? What the hell, man? What happened in your life to make you so bitter?

[markosis]

"Do as we say, do as we do, or risk being marginalized or destroyed" seems to be the message espoused by every cult, and that is certainly true of Christianity and Islam.

 

You make plenty of valid points, but my mother and grandmother, who attend church regularly, never tried to marginalize or destroy me for not going to church. My best friend's mother is a devout Catholic, she's the only one out of 6 in her immediate family who is, and she is fine with that, and she has never tried to convert me or preach to me.

[kwall]

Any other questions?

do you believe that humankind is capable of answering every question that it is capable of asking? in other words, are there any questions that we will never know the answer to?

[Good Old Neon]

Christ, really? You think telling kids Santa exists is bad? What the hell, man? What happened in your life to make you so bitter?

 

Though I think TheMaker takes maybe a harder line than meself, in all fairness, that is not quite what he said.

 

TheMaker

 

Now, I'm not one of these louts who thinks it's just the most amoral and beastly thing in the world to lie to children about Santa, but a part of me has always found it a bit supercilious to deliberately mislead kids in such a manner.

 

With Christmas fast approaching, and Lily now at an age where she is beginning to understand the rewards that go with it (along with pretty much being able to spot anything resembling Santa at 100 yards

[orchestra]

I've finally read this entire thread. It was a good read. Hope it keeps on going.