New and Improved 3-ply election thread...

[Sir Stewart]

[markosis]

They have her in training all this week.

 

I picture something along the lines of Pavlov's dog.

 

If captain Jack invades the US the first place he will visit will be the shore annd Delaware is on the shore.

 

Massive lol's. Hey, I went to Canada on vacation when I was 9, I guess that means I have foreign policy experience.

 

I'm usually the first person here to preach understanding and tolerance between those we disagree with, but Palin is a menace. And its extremely sad that she is nothing more than a political ploy, and she is so comfortable with being a ploy.

[kwall]

I talk to a lot of people looking to leave Ford or have already taken a package from them..........the benefits these folks received (thanks to the union) are unbelieveable. Then there's the overly high wages these people were paid (and now expect elswhere). I'm a fan of the concept of the workers union but in Fords case, the union appears to be bleeding the company dry.

the next crisis will be centered around pensions.

[Party @ the Moontower]

he's just so familiar and his gaffes are so well-known, there's not all that much left to say.

 

 

Guess I'm missing those crazy Palin-esque gaffes, can you share some of them please? And, all they seem to have on Obama these days is that he flip-flopped on wearing the American Flag pin, while McCain forgot has forgotten to wear his lately including the night of the 1st debate.

[kwall]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&pws...art=10&sa=N

[bleedorange]

Toyota and Honda have UAW plants why are they not suffering as much?

 

They do?

[John Smith]

I talk to a lot of people looking to leave Ford or have already taken a package from them..........the benefits these folks received (thanks to the union) are unbelieveable. Then there's the overly high wages these people were paid (and now expect elswhere). I'm a fan of the concept of the workers union but in Fords case, the union appears to be bleeding the company dry.

 

The auto workers at the big three have contracts that mirror each other (I think John Deere and CAT used to also). So they all end up with roughly the same deal. benefits is a huge problem right now, and I think you will see each of these companies with a huge post-retirement issue. Retirees cost a lot and as modern medicine keeps people alive longer the pension and medical benefits for retirees. Here

[John Smith]

They do?

My mistake they pay UAW wages & benfits, but to the best of my knowledge are not in a contract with the UAW.

[austrya]

I talk to a lot of people looking to leave Ford or have already taken a package from them..........the benefits these folks received (thanks to the union) are unbelieveable. Then there's the overly high wages these people were paid (and now expect elswhere). I'm a fan of the concept of the workers union but in Fords case, the union appears to be bleeding the company dry.

 

For instance, the employees pay absolutely nothing for their health/dental/vision insurance (I don't know if this has changed recently, but last I knew this was how it was). That is a union bargained for benefit. What's wrong with making the employee pay a portion of their insurance costs? Think about how much money Ford could save if every one of their employees paid just $30 a month toward their insurance costs. I would guestimate to say they have about 50,000 hourly workers @ $30 a month would save Ford $1,500,000 a month. That's a lot of fucking money. They could use that money for research and development, etc. The hourly employees would fight that tooth and nail because they feel that they are entitled to free benefits. The union would back them.

[John Smith]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&pws...art=10&sa=N

 

Touche'

 

But I still maintain that he does not screw up every time he talks publicly like...

 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=palin+gaffes

[kwall]

But I still maintain that he does not screw up every time he talks publicly

never said he did.

[John Smith]

For instance, the employees pay absolutely nothing for their health/dental/vision insurance (I don't know if this has changed recently, but last I knew this was how it was). That is a union bargained for benefit. What's wrong with making the employee pay a portion of their insurance costs? Think about how much money Ford could save if every one of their employees paid just $30 a month toward their insurance costs. I would guestimate to say they have about 50,000 hourly workers @ $30 a month would save Ford $1,500,000 a month. That's a lot of fucking money. They could use that money for research and development, etc. The hourly employees would fight that tooth and nail because they feel that they are entitled to free benefits. The union would back them.

 

Exactly but the company agrees to the demands, though with the next contract they may not. But companies like Ford and GM need to do a hell of a lot more than bargain tougher with the union. They need to re-engineer their whole company and how they do business. The much despised and hated union is simply one piece of the puzzle. I say that if the union did not exist and Ford & GM paid walmart wages and benefits, both companies woudl still be in major trouble right now. The auto industry in this country has always been poorly run. It's just that the good times have tended to mask that.

[Sir Stewart]

Touche'

 

Really? Because that link did not back up his argument at all.

It's like saying "Santa Claus exists."

Oh yeah? Give me some evidence.

"Okay: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&cli...amp;btnG=Search "

 

I'm not saying Biden doesn't have diarrhea mouth, but jeez.

[Party @ the Moontower]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&pws...art=10&sa=N

 

 

Palin doesn't have a chance. Biden has done so many interviews and speeches for this election with a handfull of gaffs. That's him, but he is a very intelligent person. He certainly does not try to justify and continue using ridiculous remarks like seeing Russia over there and Putin's head flying over Alsaka. Palin has said something funny every time she has spoken to the media. If it were just the occasional gaff on her part like Biden, maybe it would be different. There just doesn't seem to be any substance there to cancel out the silliness.

[John Smith]

Really? Because that link did not back up his argument at all.

It's like saying "Santa Claus exists."

Oh yeah? Give me some evidence.

"Okay: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&cli...amp;btnG=Search "

 

I'm not saying Biden doesn't have diarrhea mouth, but jeez.

 

I think Kwall has a point that there are Gaffes, the right takes them and runs the marathon with them. Palin by comparison makes a gaffe today we have fun with it tomorrow, and the next day she will have a couple more new ones.

[NightOfJoy]

The auto workers at the big three have contracts that mirror each other (I think John Deere and CAT used to also). So they all end up with roughly the same deal. benefits is a huge problem right now, and I think you will see each of these companies with a huge post-retirement issue. Retirees cost a lot and as modern medicine keeps people alive longer the pension and medical benefits for retirees. Here

[kwall]

Really? Because that link did not back up his argument at all.

i don't have an argument. all i said is that palin's only chance in the debate is that if biden performs as badly as she does. get off my back.

[austrya]

Exactly but the company agrees to the demands, though with the next contract they may not. But companies like Ford and GM need to do a hell of a lot more than bargain tougher with the union. They need to re-engineer their whole company and how they do business. The much despised and hated union is simply one piece of the puzzle..

 

I don't hate the union. I think the union is a good thing for the auto industry in terms of safety and the best interest of the employee. I just don't think they always have the best interest of the company.

 

Another example of the power of the union...

 

Person A is asked to work two hours of overtime. No one else in their "job classification" is asked. Person A works his two hours and collects time and a half pay for those two hours.

 

Person B finds out that person A worked 2 hours of overtime and goes and complains to the overtime rep for the union. Since person B was never asked if he wanted to work overtime, he is compensated for those two hours at time and a half pay, even though he didn't work them. Had the supervisor asked him to work, and had he refused, he would not be entitled to that pay.

 

Person B tells the other 50 people in his "job classification" about it and those people rush to get their two hours at time and a half too.

 

 

 

I hear where you're coming from, especially about corporate strategy, but when I'm talking to a Senior Financial Analyst with 6 years experience making 6 figures as a base salary who is nowhere near a "rock star", there's a problem.

 

A senior financial analyst would be a salaried position and that person would not be in the union.

 

Only hourly employees are part of the union.

[JUDE]

Glad to see we were able to keep the thread theme on the issues and well thought out discussions of these issues rather than falling back into Biden is a dick, Palin is a moron, etc. News flash, regardless of party affiliation, these people will not be the ones paying to clean up these messes.

 

This election we will get exactly what we deserve as a country. Regardless of whichever hack gets elected.

[bjorn_skurj]

For instance, the employees pay absolutely nothing for their health/dental/vision insurance (I don't know if this has changed recently, but last I knew this was how it was). That is a union bargained for benefit. What's wrong with making the employee pay a portion of their insurance costs? Think about how much money Ford could save if every one of their employees paid just $30 a month toward their insurance costs. I would guestimate to say they have about 50,000 hourly workers @ $30 a month would save Ford $1,500,000 a month. That's a lot of fucking money. They could use that money for research and development, etc. The hourly employees would fight that tooth and nail because they feel that they are entitled to free benefits. The union would back them.

Having belonged to a shitty union (Newspaper Guild) while working for a cheapshit employer (Journal Register Co.), I am a little envious of the UAW's clout. Ultimately, it takes two to tango, and if GM/Ford/DaimlerChrysler wanted to dig in its heels, it could have done so.

[NightOfJoy]

A senior financial analyst would be a salaried position and that person would not be in the union.

 

Only hourly employees are part of the union.

 

True. However, I didnt make my earlier point clear enough. IMO, the union as well as overly competitive salaries being paid are hurting Ford. Nowhere else does a 6 year financial analyst make 6 figures (except in I-Banking and methinks that'll be changing....).

[myboyblue]

Having belonged to a shitty union (Newspaper Guild) while working for a cheapshit employer (Journal Register Co.), I am a little envious of the UAW's clout. Ultimately, it takes two to tango, and if GM/Ford/DaimlerChrysler wanted to dig in its heels, it could have done so.

 

The UAW may have "clout" in holding certain aspects of business over the corporation's head. However, they see their membership continuing to decline as layoffs and outsourcing continue to happen.

[austrya]

True. However, I didnt make my earlier point clear enough. IMO, the union as well as overly competitive salaries being paid are hurting Ford. Nowhere else does a 6 year financial analyst make 6 figures (except in I-Banking and methinks that'll be changing....).

 

That's true. Ford couldn't pay a financial analyst with 6 years experience less than what they pay their hourly workers. I think the hourly workers make about $55K a year which is probably right around where a financial analyst would be.

 

Maybe Jay should see about getting a financial analyst job at Ford. He has 10 years experience. He works for the University of Michigan...

[John Smith]

I don't hate the union. I think the union is a good thing for the auto industry in terms of safety and the best interest of the employee. I just don't think they always have the best interest of the company.

 

Another example of the power of the union...

 

Person A is asked to work two hours of overtime. No one else in their "job classification" is asked. Person A works his two hours and collects time and a half pay for those two hours.

 

Person B finds out that person A worked 2 hours of overtime and goes and complains to the overtime rep for the union. Since person B was never asked if he wanted to work overtime, he is compensated for those two hours at time and a half pay, even though he didn't work them. Had the supervisor asked him to work, and had he refused, he would not be entitled to that pay.

 

Person B tells the other 50 people in his "job classification" about it and those people rush to get their two hours at time and a half too.

 

I didn

[Party @ the Moontower]

a very nice quote on Kwall date='Sep 30 2008, 02:53 PM' post='1210670']

Well, yeah, but I don't even come close to matching your record for most inane posts by an individual poster whose favorite retort of choice is to bait someone, and then like, simply take one portion of their reply out of context, and then like, follow up with an "agreed."

 

 

 

i don't have an argument. all i said is that palin's only chance in the debate is that if biden performs as badly as she does. get off my back.

 

 

I agree with both quotes.