Religulous

[Tweedling]

Is this serious? Give me a war fought in the name of atheism and then we'll talk.

 

 

Either way, I want to see this movie.

 

Yes.

 

My point is I believe that religion has done more good than bad.

 

However, I don't believe I'll watch this movie.

[markosis]

[intolerant] behavior will not change anyone's mind. There needs to be understanding and we need to see what is common between us as humans, not take hardcore stances against one another.

 

Just wanted to quote/paraphrase myself from earlier.

[explodo]

Yes.

 

My point is I believe that religion has done more good than bad.

 

However, I don't believe I'll watch this movie.

I'd say it is a toss up. But I think hospitals are a particularly bad example because they would have been established regardless. Something like faith-based community organizing would work better.

[Party @ the Moontower]

Jesus Camp was one of the most terrifying movies I've ever seen.

 

I could barely watch it. The church they show the children's prayer conference at is within a short drive from me in Lee's Summit MO. It seems the camp was shut down to protect it from vandalism & the negative reactions they recieved.

 

Oh, and I love Bill so I will definately watch this. By the way, He is a brillant comedian, so one must have intelligence & a sense of humor to get him. I do not believe in God, or any organized religion based on him, but I respect ones right and passion to live within the boundries of their beliefs, as long as they keep it off me.

 

Living in the bible belt has given me many experiences with somoene else's faith being thrown @ me. I can not count the number of times a van full of Mormons have arrived @ my door to encourage me to join them, despite having no idea or concern for what beliefs I may hold. I would never knock on someone's door to ask them to join my circle.

[lost highway]

The role religion has played in history; politically, philosophically, morally and spiritually is of such great variety that anyone who can respond to 'religion's' worth in one sentence is an oaf.

 

As for the film, I'm hoping it hones in on religious extremism and manipulation. Then contrasts that to a more mainstream religious society to show how the word religion can mean weekly prayer and orange juice with the neighbors and it can also mean strapping a bomb to your chest.

[Three dollars and 63 cents]

It turns out I'm going to miss Bill Maher tonight, since I haven't been feeling well all day I do still want to see the movie, though.

[austrya]

Organized religion teaches hate towards those of other belief systems while personal faith guides one in their everyday life.

 

I've been Catholic my whole life and I've never felt that I've been taught to hate other belief systems. I've been taught to be accepting and not to judge.

 

Heck my sister married a Muslim man in a Catholic church and they even allowed a reading from the Qur

[Good Old Neon]

Dr. Canuck

Ugh... I dislike atheists almost as much as hard core Christians.

I don't care if you believe in nothing, keep it to yourself.

 

With all due respect, if you

[Good Old Neon]

Haven't there been a bunch of hospitals created in the name of religion? Are there atheist hospitals? Just asking.

 

Nevermind, I looked it up.

 

Some airports are named after presidents, does that in some way suggest, Reagan, for instance, should be credited with flight? Saints names being attached to hospitals has nothing to do with the scientific medical procedures being practiced within

[JUDE]

Awesome.

[Tweedling]

We have a hospital in my city that was sarted in the late 1800's. It's name is St. Anthonys Hospital and it was started by Catholic nuns. They also started the first nursing school. I can't speak for the rest of the country but I have not seen an atheist hospital in my city.

It always baffles me when people see the miracle of a babys birth and all the amazing things they go through while growing up and still do not believe there is a God. That has been proof enough for me.

I'd rather not argue if there is a God or not. I would just like to think that religion has done more good than harm.

[Good Old Neon]

We have a hospital in my city that was sarted in the late 1800's. It's name is St. Anthonys Hospital and it was started by Catholic nuns. They also started the first nursing school. I can't speak for the rest of the country but I have not seen an atheist hospital in my city.

It always baffles me when people see the miracle of a babys birth and all the amazing things they go through while growing up and still do not believe there is a God. That has been proof enough for me.

I'd rather not argue if there is a God or not. I would just like to think that religion has done more good than harm.

 

Well, it

[kwall]

I

[Good Old Neon]

perhaps they credit the development of the surgical technology itself to be god-given. or the ability of the surgeon. or the timing of the discovery of the illness. or any number of things.

 

Well, in that case, I would introduce that view to Mr. Occam and his razor. In case you are unfamiliar:

 

one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything

 

Occam's razor is a logical principle attributed to the mediaeval philosopher William of Occam (or Ockham). The principle states that one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed. This principle is often called the principle of parsimony. It underlies all scientific modelling and theory building. It admonishes us to choose from a set of otherwise equivalent models of a given phenomenon the simplest one. In any given model, Occam's razor helps us to "shave off" those concepts, variables or constructs that are not really needed to explain the phenomenon. By doing that, developing the model will become much easier, and there is less chance of introducing inconsistencies, ambiguities and redundancies.

 

Though the principle may seem rather trivial, it is essential for model building because of what is known as the "underdetermination of theories by data". For a given set of observations or data, there is always an infinite number of possible models explaining those same data. This is because a model normally represents an infinite number of possible cases, of which the observed cases are only a finite subset. The non-observed cases are inferred by postulating general rules covering both actual and potential observations.

 

For example, through two data points in a diagram you can always draw a straight line, and induce that all further observations will lie on that line. However, you could also draw an infinite variety of the most complicated curves passing through those same two points, and these curves would fit the empirical data just as well. Only Occam's razor would in this case guide you in choosing the "straight" (i.e. linear) relation as best candidate model. A similar reasoning can be made for n data points lying in any kind of distribution.

 

Occam's razor is especially important for universal models such as the ones developed in General Systems Theory, mathematics or philosophy, because there the subject domain is of an unlimited complexity. If one starts with too complicated foundations for a theory that potentially encompasses the universe, the chances of getting any manageable model are very slim indeed. Moreover, the principle is sometimes the only remaining guideline when entering domains of such a high level of abstraction that no concrete tests or observations can decide between rival models. In mathematical modelling of systems, the principle can be made more concrete in the form of the principle of uncertainty maximization: from your data, induce that model which minimizes the number of additional assumptions.

 

This principle is part of epistemology, and can be motivated by the requirement of maximal simplicity of cognitive models. However, its significance might be extended to metaphysics if it is interpreted as saying that simpler models are more likely to be correct than complex ones, in other words, that "nature" prefers simplicity.

 

source - http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/occamraz.html

[kwall]

serious question: would you be grateful if you received life-saving surgery?

[Good Old Neon]

serious question: would you be grateful if you received life-saving surgery?

 

As I

[kwall]

As I

[Tweedling]

If it's not already obvious, now would be a good time to point out I'm a "glass is half full" kind of guy.

[Good Old Neon]

what about the doctor's parents? or the doctor's teachers? or the founders of the hospital? or the ambulance drivers? or those in the past that developed the surgical technique employed? your doctors alone would not have been able to help you.

 

your characterization of divine intervention is a simplistic one. not everyone who believes in god conceptualizes him/her/it as an old, white man sitting on a cloud making things happen with the snap of his fingers.

 

And what of those non-believers who toiled away on cures in anonymity, all the while, quietly understanding that science, not the divine, would ultimately lead to the saving of billions of lives? In my opinion, a persons choice in any number of any of life

[kwall]

The desire to help one another is, to a great extent, intrinsic to our nature –

some would consider this statement to be a pretty good definition of god.

 

– religion is simply the false label we attribute to our natural, altruistic urges. I have every reason to believe doctors and the entire network of care-givers would exist even if religion had never been invented – the evidence is all around us, we’ve simply chosen to ignore it.

agreed. i'm not talking about religion.

[Good Old Neon]

some would would consider this statement to be a pretty good definition of god.

 

Given that many of our forbearers shared many of the same altruistic urges, including social pack animals, wolves, (some) primates, lions, meerkats, etc, it would certainly appear as though altruism

[Guest Jules]

Bill Maher is a douchebag.

[kwall]

Given that many of our forbearers shared many of the same altruistic urges, including social pack animals, wolves, (some) primates, lions, meerkats, etc, it would certainly appear as though altruism

[jakobnicholas]

I saw Bill Maher live a few years and he was much funnier than I expected......when not talking politics or religion.

 

 

Not many comedians can joke about such matters and not come across as mean or hateful or un-funny. Chris Rock can pull it off sometimes. Dennis Miller can pull it off. Leno can pull it off.

 

 

But Maher comes across like a smug, non-funny, arrogant piece of crap.

[Good Old Neon]

agreed.

 

 

do you object to the notion that natural things have a source or that we try to label the source?

 

If by source you mean an origin that is not the work of some conscious higher being concerned with our wellbeing, then yes, I believe our existence is predicated upon something, however, I draw a strict line at the belief that our existence is the handy work of a man/being/it/woman