bobbob1313 Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 Baseball writers are dumb if they voted for Pedroia over Mauer because of intangibles. That's what I'll say. I'll say him playing in Boston and being 4 and a half feet tall had much more to do with him winning it over Mauer than intangibles. If Mauer does what he does in Boston he's a two time MVP winner. Link to post Share on other sites
Lammycat Posted November 19, 2008 Author Share Posted November 19, 2008 Mauer as the clear cut/run-away and rightful receiver of the award doesn't resonate with me, sorry. Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 Mauer as the clear cut/run-away and rightful receiver of the award doesn't resonate with me, sorry. It doesn't with me either. Frankly, Mauer only ranks slightly higher Pedroia, and probably would've been 3rd or 4th if I had a vote. Practically every metric that attempts to quantify value (VORP, WARP3, EQA, Win Shares) doesn't see Pedroia as the most valuable player. There's a handful of players who were more valuable than either of them. That Pedroia won it despite being arguably the 5th-7th most valuable player in the league (not to mention arguably the 2nd most valuable player on his own team) is going to rightfully bring up debate. If Pedroia's 'intangibles' are really that valuable, he should be a police officer or something, because his steely nerve and gritty determination are obviously being wasted on a baseball diamond. What Mauer did was overshadowed because he did it in a small market on a team that never gets major coverage. If their roles were switched and Mauer was in Boston and Pedroia was in Minnesota, there's not a doubt in my mind that Mauer wins the MVP over Pedroia all other things being equal. Also, just to add: Mauer/Pedroia WPA 4.88/3.29EQA .324/.306WARP3 11.8/10.4OPS+ 137/122Win Shares 30/26 It's not a huge advantage in any one category, but it's a pretty damn nice across the board sweep from the sabermetric community. Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 If I had a vote I think I probably would have voted for Mauer, but there were a handful of guys in the AL who were roughly equally worthy of the award, and Pedroia is among those guys. Wouldn't be my choice, but he's not a bad one. Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 I don't mean to sound like I think he's a terrible choice. He'd be in the bottom part of my top 5, but there's not a huge gap between them all. I just think he doesn't deserve it. Link to post Share on other sites
CrushOfVeils80 Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 Listen, I'm just re-stating the merits for the award that Mr.Rain posted. Yeah, they are heavily based on intangibles. So, it is an issue. I also said it'd be a coin toss between Mauer and Pedroia if I was voting. Saying you "don't buy" the fact that Pedroia won it over Mauer doesn't hold water for me if intangibles are being voted on. I didn't say Pedroia scores better in the "intangibles" column, necessarily, but enough of the people who vote apparently did. And no, I don't think the BBWA got it wrong. Because he plays for the Red Sox he got it? Please. ed. And, Pedroia might be 5'9" in high heels.... playing in a big market and for a glamorous team (Red Sox, Yankees) that the media is constantly performing fellatio on helps a lot when it comes to individual awards, after all its the media that is handing out the award, if Joe Mauer and Josh Hamilton played in Boston and New York they would have finished higher...... do you not think so? I mean do you think if Kirby Puckett played in New York or Boston or Chicago he would have won an MVP? If not well agree to disagree I guess, sometimes you just got to say when in Rome, go Saux I guess Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Stewart Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 When was the last time a Red Sock won MVP? Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 Earlier today. Are you even paying attention? Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 Earlier today. Are you even paying attention? :chortle Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 To be serious though, the last one before Pedroia was Mo Vaughn in 1995, which is a pretty good example of what he's talking about, as Albert Belle, Frank Thomas and Tim Salmon would have all been better choices. Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Stewart Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 Thanks - I wasn't actually responding to anyone, I'd been wondering that all day and haven't had a chance to find out. Link to post Share on other sites
CrushOfVeils80 Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 This question is for anyone who doesnt think it helps you to play in a big market when it comes to the MVP award..... someone explain how Kirby Puckett, Tony Gwynn, and Paul Molitor never won an MVP? So you dont think being a Yankee or Red Sock, or Dodger or even Cub or White Sock would have helped? How many casual fans even know who Joe Mauer, Josh Hamilton, and Ryan Braun are? Link to post Share on other sites
CrushOfVeils80 Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 Albert Belle got robbed in 1995 of the AL MVP award, he had 50 homers, 50 doubles, .317 average, .401 OBP, and a 1091 OPS and he didnt win the MVP? It was one of the biggest pooch screws ever when it comes to MVP, I dont know maybe if he had better character and disposition he would have won? who knows Link to post Share on other sites
Duck-Billed Catechist Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 This question is for anyone who doesnt think it helps you to play in a big market when it comes to the MVP award..... someone explain how Kirby Puckett, Tony Gwynn, and Paul Molitor never won an MVP?Hmm, I dunno. Justin Morneau almost won it twice and he's not as good as any of those guys. Which years do you think Puckett, Gwynn, or Molitor should've won? Also, I would say most casual fans know who Hamilton (tons of media coverage last year) and Mauer are. I'm not sure who "casual fans" are, really, but it's not like sportswriters aren't going to give them consideration. Link to post Share on other sites
Lammycat Posted November 19, 2008 Author Share Posted November 19, 2008 I dont know maybe if he had better character and disposition he would have won? who knowsPossibly, as it's part of the criteria. Link to post Share on other sites
CrushOfVeils80 Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 Possibly, as it's part of the criteria. spare me barry bonds? Link to post Share on other sites
CrushOfVeils80 Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 Hmm, I dunno. Justin Morneau almost won it twice and he's not as good as any of those guys. Which years do you think Puckett, Gwynn, or Molitor should've won? Also, I would say most casual fans know who Hamilton (tons of media coverage last year) and Mauer are. I'm not sure who "casual fans" are, really, but it's not like sportswriters aren't going to give them consideration. without looking too much into it .....Puckett should have won in 1987 over George Bell, and Gwynn over Ryne Sandberg in 1984 Link to post Share on other sites
yankhotelfox Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 Albert Belle got robbed in 1995 of the AL MVP award, he had 50 homers, 50 doubles, .317 average, .401 OBP, and a 1091 OPS and he didnt win the MVP? It was one of the biggest pooch screws ever when it comes to MVP, I dont know maybe if he had better character and disposition he would have won? who knows Absolutely zero chance the sportswriters would give an MVP to Al Belle, even if he did have a stellar season. He also helped to lead the Indians (who made their first postseason appearance since 1954, not counting "Major League") to the World Series. Vaughn only had 165 hits in '95. If Belle wasn't such a dickhead, he would have been a shoe-in. One thing that surprises me is that Juan Gonzalez won two MVPs with the Rangers ('96 & '98) and he wasn't that loveable a character either. It's wild that all those dudes were juicin', and lookin' back it was obvious, and no one intervened. Look at Sosa...he was a scrawny kid when he came up with the White Sox and he turned into a beast. Link to post Share on other sites
cryptique Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 Albert Belle got robbed in 1995 of the AL MVP award, he had 50 homers, 50 doubles, .317 average, .401 OBP, and a 1091 OPS and he didnt win the MVP? It was one of the biggest pooch screws ever when it comes to MVP, I dont know maybe if he had better character and disposition he would have won? who knows"Joey" Link to post Share on other sites
Oil Can Boyd Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 Yeah, the MVP voting is a weird and subjective process.One of the voters (from the Dallas Morning News) didn't have Pedroia in his top 10.In terms of all time pooch screws, Ted Williams could probably complain. He hit .400 (in 1941) and won the Triple Crown (in both 1942 and 1947) and didn't win the MVP in any of those years. One of those years, 1947 I think, a writer left Williams completely off the ballot. Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 It's like this: If you are a "little guy player" (Don't hit a lot of homers or get RBI, most of your value comes from AVG, Getting on base, Defense, baserunning ala Pedroia, Mauer, Jeter (sort of), Gwynn, Puckett, etc), and you don't play for a big market team, you probably won't win an MVP. Link to post Share on other sites
Duck-Billed Catechist Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 without looking too much into it .....Puckett should have won in 1987 over George Bell, and Gwynn over Ryne Sandberg in 1984Sandberg had a better OPS from a tougher position (though basically the same OPS+ because he played in a hitter's park). Mike Schmidt actually had by far the best numbers that year, but the Phillies were .500. Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 In '87 it probably should have gone to Alan Trammell -- he had a better year than either Bell or Puckett, and played a tough position well. Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 Coco Crisp to KC. Link to post Share on other sites
PigSooie Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 Coco Crisp to KC. for Ramon Ramirez. Link to post Share on other sites
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