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MLB 2008-09 Hot Stove League

Lammycat

By Lammycat,
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Serak_the_Preparer

Serak_the_Preparer

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Sorry i am late on this topic, but Pedroia isn't even the Red Sox MVP - Youk was. Youkilis: .312 avg, .390 obp, .569 slugging, 29 HR 115 RBI, 91 Runs - Pedroia only beat him on avg and runs. Pedroia: .326 avg, .376 obp, .493 slugging, 19 HR, 83 RBI, 118 Runs. Fielding: Youk .996, Pedroia .991. Pedroia as AL MVP is a joke.

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Guest Jules

Guest Jules

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Sorry i am late on this topic, but Pedroia isn't even the Red Sox MVP - Youk was. Youkilis: .312 avg, .390 obp, .569 slugging, 29 HR 115 RBI, 91 Runs - Pedroia only beat him on avg and runs. Pedroia: .326 avg, .376 obp, .493 slugging, 19 HR, 83 RBI, 118 Runs. Fielding: Youk .996, Pedroia .991. Pedroia as AL MVP is a joke.

It's not just based on numbers.

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Duck-Billed Catechist

Duck-Billed Catechist

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Sorry i am late on this topic, but Pedroia isn't even the Red Sox MVP - Youk was. Youkilis: .312 avg, .390 obp, .569 slugging, 29 HR 115 RBI, 91 Runs - Pedroia only beat him on avg and runs. Pedroia: .326 avg, .376 obp, .493 slugging, 19 HR, 83 RBI, 118 Runs. Fielding: Youk .996, Pedroia .991. Pedroia as AL MVP is a joke.

Fielding percentage is a terrible measure of defensive play. Plus, Pedroia plays a tougher defensive position.

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Lammycat

Lammycat

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It's not just based on numbers.

This is getting to the beating-a-dead-horse stage, I feel, but it isn't solely based on numbers. This isn't a Player of the Year award. There are criteria that the BBWA use to help them select their order of merited recipients. Some people here take objection to that as there are "intangibles" that the BBWA are asked to consider. That doesn't negate the criteria, though.

 

I'd say Pedroia was the MVP for the Sox over Youks, too. There are a lot of numbers you can toss out to support an argument for either and based on those numbers you may be swayed. Pedroia had a monster defensive year and an excellent offensive year and played a harder defensive slot than Youilis. Youkilis had a fantastic year but calling it a "joke" that Pedroia received the award is far-fetched and myopic.

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bobbob1313

bobbob1313

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Fielding percentage is a terrible measure of defensive play. Plus, Pedroia plays a tougher defensive position.

 

Pedroia has the advantage in WARP3, Youkilis has the advantage in Win Shares, which (I believe) utilizes the +/- defensive metric, which is widely considered to be a more accurate defensive metric than FRAR, which is what the WARP stats us.

 

They are both really close in value. Youk kicks his ass if you just look at the numbers, but you have to give Pedroia credit for playing a tough position well.

 

Now, if we want to talk about the intangibles crap, I'd go with Youk there. He's got a giant ass goatee which has to count for something, he is willing to play 1B or 3B depending on where the team needs him on any given day, and he fought Manny, The Clubhouse Cancer!

 

 

Pedroia had a "monster defensive year"? Where? By most metrics, he's around 4th-7th in defensive value for second basemen in baseball. Chase Utley had a monster defensive year (+47!!!!!). Pedroia had a really good defensive year (+17, or something).

 

(to explain the +- thing, they watch every play and track where and how hard it was hit, and then a player gets a plus for every play he makes that at least one other player at that position didn't make. Utley had the highest score for 2B at +47. That's way better than Pedroia's +17.)

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bobbob1313

bobbob1313

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I would have almost no problem whatsoever with the MVP award being based solely on numbers, if only people understood the proper way to interpret those numbers.

 

I want every player in the league to have a chest X-Ray, and whoever has the largest heart should win. Bam.

 

Either that or an algorithm based on percentage of salary donated, number of clothing items with team's insignia owned, amount of team dinner parties hosted, as well as heart size.

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Sir Stewart

Sir Stewart

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Dan Shaughnessy in today's Globe:

But a few words must be said about Theo Epstein and Sox scouting director Jason McLeod. These men believed in Pedroia when no one else believed. They are the ones who drafted him in the second round in 2004. And Theo is the one who let go of Mark Loretta after the 2006 season and told Terry Francona that Pedroia would be the Red Sox second baseman in 2007.

 

It was a bold move. Pedroia was called up in September 2006 and looked awful. He'd ballooned to 193 pounds - way too much for his ridiculous 5-foot-7-inch frame (don't buy the 5-9 myth), he couldn't cover any ground, and he hit .191 in his small sample.

 

There were plenty of reasons to dismiss him, and most people did. I know I did. Pedroia came to 2007 spring training in great shape, but still had a dismal April. Reviews were fairly unanimous: The kid can't play. Nice college player. Nice minor league player. But that's it.

 

His is a pretty good story.

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Lammycat

Lammycat

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I want every player in the league to have a chest X-Ray, and whoever has the largest heart should win. Bam.

 

Either that or an algorithm based on percentage of salary donated, number of clothing items with team's insignia owned, amount of team dinner parties hosted, as well as heart size.

You should write a plea to the awards committe with your gripe.

 

If it weren't for the intangibles no way Pedroia wins the award, right?

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MattZ

MattZ

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I would have almost no problem whatsoever with the MVP award being based solely on numbers, if only people understood the proper way to interpret those numbers.

 

 

I want every player in the league to have a chest X-Ray, and whoever has the largest heart should win. Bam.

 

Either that or an algorithm based on percentage of salary donated, number of clothing items with team's insignia owned, amount of team dinner parties hosted, as well as heart size.

 

Guys, I hear what you are saying, but keep in mind that the "system" you demand takes the subjectivity out of the process. While that goes a long way to crowning the "correct" MVP as you desire, it also removes the basis for all arguments around the issue. And let's face it, baseball itself survives and thrives on the comparisons among and between players and eras. And the arguments we are having now. That's the foundation on which the sport stands. I'd say that's more important than giving the MVP to the "right" person.

 

EDIT: In other words, if everyone interpreted the numbers correctly, it would just be a matter of looking at the numbers to see who should win. What kind of interest would the sport have if all you had to do was pull up baseball-reference.com to see who should win?

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bobbob1313

bobbob1313

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You should write a plea to the awards committe with your gripe.

 

If it weren't for the intangibles no way Pedroia wins the award, right?

 

If he doesn't play in Boston and isn't the size of Polly Pocket, he doesn't win the award.

 

Like I said, he's not a terrible choice, but he's also not a great choice. It's foolish to pretend he is.

 

Guys, I hear what you are saying, but keep in mind that the "system" you demand takes the subjectivity out of the process. While that goes a long way to crowning the "correct" MVP as you desire, it also removes the basis for all arguments around the issue. And let's face it, baseball itself survives and thrives on the comparisons among and between players and eras. And the arguments we are having now. That's the foundation on which the sport stands. I'd say that's more important than giving the MVP to the "right" person.

 

EDIT: In other words, if everyone interpreted the numbers correctly, it would just be a matter of looking at the numbers to see who should win. What kind of interest would the sport have if all you had to do was pull up baseball-reference.com to see who should win?

 

For sure, I love having these conversations. I prefer when they give it to the wrong guy, because it lets me be all snarky and self righteous. I like the subjectivity, and I wouldn't have it any other way. If they gave it to the right guy every year, there would be nothing for me to get mad about.

 

Baseball is great because it is imperfect.

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Lammycat

Lammycat

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If he doesn't play in Boston and isn't the size of Polly Pocket, he doesn't win the award.

 

Like I said, he's not a terrible choice, but he's also not a great choice. It's foolish to pretend he is.

Horseshit on all counts. Mauer is the only guy who came as close to meriting the award and he would have been a fine pick, as well.

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bobbob1313

bobbob1313

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Horseshit on all counts. Mauer is the only guy who came as close to meriting the award and he would have been a fine pick, as well.

 

Youk

Quentin

A-Rod

Bradley

 

All had seasons at least as good as Pedroia.

 

If you want to say he's "more valuable" because of intangibles, you can, but it's not like Mauer and Pedroia were the only good players. Youk had more Win Shares than Pedroia did, even.

 

My card would probably have looked like this:

1. Mauer

2. Quentin

3. Youk

4. Pedroia

5. A-Rod

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Lammycat

Lammycat

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If he hadn't gotten hurt for the last month of the season, I think that Quentin would have ran away with it.

He was the front-runner up until the end of August, sure. The injury killed it for him. An intangible, if you will.

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