MLB 2008-09 Hot Stove League

[PigSooie]

Jeff Kent donated $15K to the anti-gay marriage thing in California.

 

I wonder how louieb feels about this.

[cryptique]

I wish you guys didn't take my initial comment/argument and change it into a completely different argument.

Seriously.

[Guest Jules]

What if the gold glover at second base is also an awesome hitter?

Look, I ain't saying it's right. But you're saying a foot massage don't mean nothing, and I'm saying it does.

[MattZ]

Would you rather have Jeff Kent playing 1b or Mo Vaughn playing 2b? Howzbout that?

 

I dont see why the bogey has to be whether a specific 1b can play 2b effectively. The issue is whether 2b is harder to play than 1b. Not whether a 1b can play 2b.

 

I'd rather have Kent at first than Vaughn at 2b. But I also want Kent at first over Vaughn at 1b. Which is to say that Vaughn sucks.

 

I wish you guys didn't take my initial comment/argument and change it into a completely different argument.

 

right, I am still with you Jules

[MrRain422]

Sure, I'd rather have Kent at first instead of Vaughn too. Just because 1B is an easier position doesn't mean everyone can do it equally well.

[Guest Jules]

Who's on first?

[bjorn_skurj]

Mo Vaughn was born to be a designated hitter.

[Guest Jules]

Sure, I'd rather have Kent at first instead of Vaughn too. Just because 1B is an easier position doesn't mean everyone can do it equally well.

OK, now you're just fucking with me.

[bobbob1313]

All I said was 2nd base is not a "much more difficult" position than 1st. Not easier.

 

Hey, I realize 2nd base is generally considered a defensive position. You have to have good range, quick hands, a lot of responsibility, etc. I just took exception to the notion that it is so much more difficult than 1st base, and that it would even be a consideration in comparing the value of Pedrioa to Youkilis. That is all.

 

Here's why position should be taken into account without getting into why 2nd is clearly the more difficult position to field (which is just opinion, I guess):

 

Chase Utley was the only qualified 2B OPS above .900 this season. 4 more were above .800

 

4 1B had above .900 OPS with 13 more above .800

 

 

Say it with me, position scarcity.

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

I dont see why the bogey has to be whether a specific 1b can play 2b effectively. The issue is whether 2b is harder to play than 1b. Not whether a 1b can play 2b.

 

I'd rather have Kent at first than Vaughn at 2b. But I also want Kent at first over Vaughn at 1b. Which is to say that Vaughn sucks.

 

 

 

right, I am still with you Jules

Ok, would you rather have *generic 1b* at 2b or *generic 2b* at 1b? As long as the 2b is 6' or over, I'd take the the latter (for defensive purposes).

[MattZ]

Sure, I'd rather have Kent at first instead of Vaughn too. Just because 1B is an easier position doesn't mean everyone can do it equally well.

 

A gold glove first baseman makes every infielder better. A gold glove second baseman does not.

[bjorn_skurj]

Second basepersons have to do that pivot thing as part of the double play.

[PigSooie]

first basemen play with a bigger glove

[MrRain422]

How does a gold glove first baseman make the third baseman better? A good first baseman will dig more bad throws out of the dirt than a bad first baseman will, but the third baseman is just as good either way. Unless you think that Albert Pujols can will Troy Glaus into making a quicker move towards a ground ball or something.

[MattZ]

Ok, would you rather have *generic 1b* at 2b or *generic 2b* at 1b? As long as the 2b is 6' or over, I'd take the the latter (for defensive purposes).

 

Haha, look, if you stuck two bad fielders in a room and told me that one of them had to play 1b for me, but one of them was a bad 1b and one was a bad 2b, well, I don't know what the heck I'd do. All I am saying is that the "skillset" for a "gold glove 1b" is just as important, impressive, and difficult (if not moreso) than the skillset for a gold glove 2b.

[bobbob1313]

A gold glove first baseman makes every infielder better. A gold glove second baseman does not.

 

A gold glove 2B who turns the DP exceptionally well does.

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

Second basepersons have to do that pivot thing as part of the double play.

Right. They have a lot more complicated angles and responsibilities on the double play than the 1b's positional equivalent, which would seem to me to be the bunt or grounder up the line.

[MattZ]

How does a gold glove first baseman make the third baseman better? A good first baseman will dig more bad throws out of the dirt than a bad first baseman will, but the third baseman is just as good either way. Unless you think that Albert Pujols can will Troy Glaus into making a quicker move towards a ground ball or something.

 

Come on. And I'm the one with the bit?

Are we talking about amorphous and intangible concepts? Or real ones? Fine, you are correct that a 1b doesnt change how good the 3b is. But a gold glove 1b will reduce the 3b's errors. Ok? I'd argue that Glaus is "better" if he has 8 errors on the season instead of 15.

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

On the other hand, I was a bad fielder (and player) in little league and the coach put me in RF, CF, and 2B.

[bobbob1313]

"skillset" for a "gold glove 1b" is just as important, impressive, and difficult (if not moreso) than the skillset for a gold glove 2b.

I call bullshit. A 2B has more ground to cover, generally has more balls hit directly to him, has to cover 2nd on SB and DP, has to make more throws, and has to turn the wheel on bunts.

 

The most difficult things a 1B does is field sharp grounds and LD (which 2B do as well), and dig balls on bad throws.

 

Matt, that's precisely why errors are a terrible gauge of how good a fielder is....

[MrRain422]

Come on. And I'm the one with the bit?

Are we talking about amorphous and intangible concepts? Or real ones? Fine, you are correct that a 1b doesnt change how good the 3b is. But a gold glove 1b will reduce the 3b's errors. Ok? I'd argue that Glaus is "better" if he has 8 errors on the season instead of 15.

 

Okay, but a good secondbaseman can reduce the number of errors by the other fielders too. This is not unique to the first base position. It's not like no one is ever throwing to the second baseman, and a lot of the throws that are coming to the second baseman are a whole lot more difficult to handle than the ones being thrown to 1B.

 

In actually hot stove news (sort of), Mike Mussina retired.

[MattZ]

I call bullshit. A 2B has more ground to cover, generally has more balls hit directly to him, has to cover 2nd on SB and DP, has to make more throws, and has to turn the wheel on bunts.

 

The most difficult things a 1B does is field sharp grounds and LD (which 2B do as well), and dig balls on bad throws.

 

Ok, so now we have an actual argument!!

 

I'd argue that the 3-6-3 DP is the hardest play on the infield.

[Guest Jules]

Here's why position should be taken into account without getting into why 2nd is clearly the more difficult position to field (which is just opinion, I guess):

 

Chase Utley was the only qualified 2B OPS above .900 this season. 4 more were above .800

 

4 1B had above .900 OPS with 13 more above .800

 

 

Say it with me, position scarcity.

I knew you were digging something up. Good point. The funny thing is, I didn't say 2nd base is easier than 1st base, but it seems to have come across that way. Oh well.

 

Range and the double play turn are the most important aspects of a 2nd baseman. The throws are easy. You don't even need a good arm.

[bobbob1313]

I knew you were digging something up. Good point. The funny thing is, I didn't say 2nd base is easier than 1st base, but it seems to have come across that way. Oh well.

 

For a guy like Chase Utley, who has played 2B his whole life, it's probably easier than 1B. But for someone who has never played either, I'd say the transition is going to be a lot easier if you are at first than second.

[MrRain422]

Range and the double play turn are the most important aspects of a 2nd baseman. The throws are easy. You don't even need a good arm.

 

Yes, and that is way second base is an easier position than shortstop.