Hold on just one damn minute...

[Guest Jules]

fuck NAFTA

[bleedorange]

I think '12 is going to be the same as '04 was for the democrats. They are going to put up a terrible candidate and let their 'stars' take it on in '16.

 

Huckabee/Romney/Palin/Giuliani = Kerry/Dean/Edwards

Pawlenty/Jindal = Obama/Hilary

 

Is Pawlenty as much of a rising star as Jindal?

 

I completely agree with your assessment, by the way. Unless things remain in the crapper and Obama shows himself to be vulnerable in '12.

[bobbob1313]

Is Pawlenty as much of a rising star as Jindal?

 

I completely agree with your assessment, by the way. Unless things remain in the crapper and Obama shows himself to be vulnerable in '12.

 

I'm mostly just going by the guys who get bandied about the most on the conservative board I post on.

 

For the record, I do not see why people are so energized by Jindal, aside from the fact that he's super conservative both socially and economically and isn't an old white dude. Is that all it is? Is it just because he's young and ethnic?

 

I'd love to support somebody who stays economically conservative and just gets the fuck out of people's lives with regards to marriage, abortion, drugs, and most of the other "social" issues the republicans have won on since the 80's. But if Jindal is the candidate for them in '12 or '16, then it'll be at last 12 years until I consider voting republican.

[cryptique]

I'm stunned that Louie thinks that people getting out and voting for him because he's black is a good thing.

 

Well, I'm not stunned that he thinks it, but I'm still a little stunned that anyone could celebrate it.

 

Why? Because it is racism!

No, it's not racism. It's narrow thinking.

 

People vote for solitary reasons all the time: party affiliation, abortion views, Supreme Court appointments ... or, let's face it: because one candidate is more physically attractive than the other, or because a candidate is from the same town or state as the voter, or went to the same high school.

 

A vote for a black candidate because he's black is just another entry on that list. It's not racist, as in "I would never vote for a white guy" -- because undoubtedly, many/most of those who voted for Obama because he's black also voted for non-black candidates elsewhere on the ballot, and/or in past elections.

 

It's just another example of a granfalloon.

 

I agree that voting for him just because he's black isn't a particularly good reason, but it doesn't pass the "racism" test from where I'm sitting.

 

Voting against him because he's black -- that's a different story.

[bobbob1313]

Voting against him because he's black -- that's a different story.

 

I guess I can't see the difference.

[Dude]

You can probably lay off the broad now. And change your avatar.

As soon as McCain's aides stop leaking info about her, I will lay off and remove the avatar, but I don't see that happening soon as there seems to be quite a story unfolding about her.

[embiggen]

I like that avatar.

[jakobnicholas]

[quote name='?

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

[quote name='Đ

[bobbob1313]

I guess I can't see the difference.

 

Or rather, I totally see the difference, I just disagree. Voting positively or negatively because of race is exactly the same thing in my eyes. Just because one is a positive vote doesn't make it better.

[watch me fall]

[quote name='Đ

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

An interesting note about the black vote in California....

 

70 percent voted against gay marriages. And 2/3 of Hispanics and Asians did the same.

 

That's compared to about a 50/50 split of white voters.

 

 

(How can I say this without being a really condescending dick...?)

 

Interesting but not at all surprising. The big surprise is that ONLY 70% of blacks voted for prop 8.

[watch me fall]

What's the deal with the other 4%

One of my coworkers' roommates, a gay black male, voted for McCain. He said he voted solely on economics.

[embiggen]

I just read one on the NYTimes website. I didn't realize the degree of animosity there. Interesting.

 

 

now the Repubs (some of them) feel disenfranchised and want to give Obama a hard time because so many people gave George W a hard time. not that he didn't deserve it or anything...

[LouieB]

i love and respect you, lou...but in this case, i'm not supporting you. because, you are ignoring the fact that nobody is 'ignoring the history of slavery, racial segregation, racial dicrimination and the entire civil rights movement'.

I am totally confused.....because actually they are. To disassociate this election from history and what it means to those who see history in racial/political terms just isn't connecting with what is going on. So that you don't think I am being a douchebag or arrogant prick (not just you), but do you know and or work with African Americans? If so just ask one. Coming from me (being a half brain dead white old white guy) this doesn't maybe mean much, but to your (and this goes for bobbob too) non-white associates it means tons.

 

 

I'm stunned that Louie thinks that people getting out and voting for him because he's black is a good thing.

 

Well, I'm not stunned that he thinks it, but I'm still a little stunned that anyone could possibly think it.

 

Why? Because it is racism!

Racism?? That is NOT racism. You are mixing apples and oranges again. Racism is the belief that someone is better than someone else because of their race, or implied superiority. Or conversely that someone is less human or worthy because of race. Voting for Barack because he is of color does not imply that he is either better or worse. It does imply support for Bacack and what he represents. Nothing wrong with that. We all express preferences every day based on subjectivity. That is not racism. Racism connotes that someone is superior or inferior or worthy of being discriminated aganist because of inferiority. Racism was what kept minorities out of mainstream culture and kept them from voting and kept them from running for office. Someone making a decision to vote because someone looks like them isn't racism.

 

Incidently voting for someone because they are black, didn't work for Alan Keyes who ran against Barack in the election when he came in and carpetbagged during that election. Keyes was clearly "more" black than Barack", yet was totally rejected by black voters who saw through Keyes ideology (I am simplifying the situation, because actually Keyes even as Republican represented some thoughts that could have resonated in the black community.) and the actual implied racism in his candidacy. So this is not totally about race it is also about Obama's ideology and politics as well.

 

You can believe I am racist if you want, but then there are millions of African Americans that are racist just like me.

 

LouieB

[quarter23cd]

now the Repubs (some of them) feel disenfranchised and want to give Obama a hard time because so many people gave George W a hard time. not that he didn't deserve it or anything...

Yeah, but don't forget that Bush got a like 5 year buffer period where it was agreed upon that public criticism was un-American. I don't think Obama will get that kind of cushion. (nor should he, I'm just throwing this out for comparison's sake)

[Guest Jules]

Or rather, I totally see the difference, I just disagree. Voting positively or negatively because of race is exactly the same thing in my eyes. Just because one is a positive vote doesn't make it better.

I'm with the gentleman from FLA.

[EL the Famous]

let me preface the following by saying that, if i did come off overly sensitive to the initial pictures and history lessons in our nations' sorrid past w/ relation to race, i apologize. i'm guessing the intent was not to paint me as a racist or (hopefully) someone who's even an iota insensitive to race. to the contrary, i'm the polar opposite...due to a large part in my personal experiences with it.

 

my grandparents, the sweetest most caring poeple in the world, during the earlier years of my youth would regularly use the words 'coon' or 'nigger' to describe anybody that was black. this was due in large part to both their age and their upbringing in heavily african-american populated decatur, IL. my mom and dad put their foot down and issued an ultimatum that either they stop being so insenstive in front of us (and them/in general for that matter) or they would not be allowed to see their grandchildren. it stopped there.

 

better yet, i fast forward to when barack ran against alan keyes for the state senate and hearing my grandfather say 'you know, that one black fella that is running against the other crazy black fella seems like a real amazing man'...not amazing despite the fact that he was black, but just that he was 'amazing'. as my grandfather is by far, my greatest personal hero...it was a defining moment in my life to see him move past his learned perceptions of a man's skin color and just see a man.

 

my long-winded point is that, while i would never ask anyone to ignore or forget, i truly want to see us genuinely move past race as much as possible. i don't ignore the fact the fact that some of my dearest friends/co-workers/heroes are black...i just refuse to let it define them. i don't have the magic equation or formula, but when does the rememberance of where we were become a counterproductive overshadowing of where we need to get to? can you ever have true equality when you are constantly reminding everybody that thing weren't and will never be that way?

 

i didn't and bobob definitely didn't grow up in a time where we could join hand in hand w/ each and every one of the absolutely inspirational individuals that rose up against the widespread racism that segegrated and condone violence against people of color. that said, is it implausible to say that making a personal decision to try and disregard skin color today as much as possible, to move forward...isn't a postive sign that the civil rights movement has acheived something?

 

i'm rambling, but this is such a personal struggle for me intellectualy and emotionaly. for the record, it's also one that you could substitute 'black' w/ any other race, sex, religion, sexual preference, etc. how do we both continue to focus on our differences and move past them? i don't think you can or should do either one exclusively, but something has to change.

[bobbob1313]

You can believe I am racist if you want, but then there are millions of African Americans that are racist just like me.

 

So the only reason you voted for him over the other guy was because he is black? Then yeah, I might call you and millions of African Americans close minded at best.

 

How can that be a good thing? If it's not racism then what is it, because it's certainly something bad.

 

If someone came out and said they voted for McCain because he's white people would lose their fucking shit, would they not? They would be called racist, right? So what's the difference? Are black people not allowed to be called out for racism?

 

 

And lest Louie continue to imply that I am completely out of touch with black people, my best friend for almost a decade now is black, and a huge Obama supporter. Not because of race.

[LouieB]

better yet, i fast forward to when barack ran against alan keyes for the state senate and hearing my grandfather say 'you know, that one black fella that is running against the other crazy black fella seems like a real amazing man'...not amazing despite the fact that he was black, but just that he was 'amazing'. as my grandfather is by far, my greatest personal hero...it was a defining moment in my life to see him move past his learned perceptions of a man's skin color and just see a man.

Forsure......

 

Had Alan Keyes been running for President, people (African Americans included, but not racist right wingers...) would have stayed away in droves. This election was NOT exclusively about race, but race was a factor. That is NOT racism.

 

Look, if you want to say that race was/is a factor in people participating in an election then okay this is racism, but it is clearly ignoring the entire "real" history of race discrimination. There isn't much else than can be said. Jim Crow laws, poll taxes, slavery, the KKK, those things were racist. Expressing yourself by voting for self interest is not racist. (I guess I am a racist for not voting for the cranky old white guy.... )

 

LouieB

[bobbob1313]

This election was NOT exclusively about race, but race was a factor. That is NOT racism.

 

For those that voted exclusively on race, it is racism.

 

I'm very interested in seeing people's responses to my "white guy voting for McCain" question. I'm guessing we're going to see some grade A hypocrisy there.

[Sir Stewart]

This is so exciting!

[jakobnicholas]

So the only reason you voted for him over the other guy was because he is black? Then yeah, I might call you and millions of African Americans close minded at best.

 

How can that be a good thing? If it's not racism then what is it, because it's certainly something bad.

 

If someone came out and said they voted for McCain because he's white people would lose their fucking shit, would they not? They would be called racist, right? So what's the difference? Are black people not allowed to be called out for racism?

 

 

 

96% is a freakish number. I guarantee a LARGE percentage of those blacks voted for Obama only because of his skin color.

 

 

If McCain was an old, moderate, war-hero in the Senate who happened to be African-Amercian, and Obama was a 44 year old liberal Senator with white skin, McCain would be getting ready for his inauguration.

[bobbob1313]

This is so exciting!

 

Really? After all of the bullshit we've discussed over the past year, this is what brings the sarcastic post from you?

[JUDE]

I voted for an old-white dude (not McCain) because I thought he was better.