MLB 2008-09 Hot Stove II

[bobbob1313]

It is largely being ignored. Nobody has talked about it nearly as much as A-Rod. To me, another player using isn't that big of a deal because I truly do believe that a majority of players used at least once (And that is all there is evidence of for Rodriguez). But that the #2 guy in the players association was tipping players off should be a way bigger deal. People should be getting fired.

 

And that just further reinforces my view that there was very little reason to not take steroids, since there was no penalty, very little chance of being caught at the time, and you were being protected by the people who should have been trying to clean the game up.

[bjorn_skurj]

Show your work, specifically in regards to A-Rod. And four "independent sources" is not enough. The burden of proof is on you.

Jesus, Mary and Joseph, the Watergate stories were done with fewer sources than that. Personally, I think the entire document should be revealed now. Let's just get it all out, so we can have a nice big long cry and write off the entire era from 1988 to about 2004 or so.

 

And that just further reinforces my view that there was very little reason to not take steroids, since there was no penalty, very little chance of being caught at the time, and you were being protected by the people who should have been trying to clean the game up.

Eternal shame and taint is not enough of a reason?

[John Smith]

Eternal shame and taint is not enough of a reason?

 

Not to an egotist perpetually surrounded by apologists...i.e most professional athelete's.

[bobbob1313]

Eternal shame and taint is not enough of a reason?

 

Hmm, eternal shame and taint or millions upon millions of dollars. Tough decision.

 

And the list absolutely should not be released. A-Rod's name should have never come out. So much for anonymous testing.

[KevinG]

Sports Illustrated is not a reliable source? What possible reason do you have to think that SI is making this up? The almost comical thing here is that A-rod (and the other 103) were told about the test and continued to break law/rules and fail the tests. And yet you still cling to the hope that it's all hearsay and innuendo. If that isn't a resounding echo of a lot of the attitude surrounding this I don't know what is.

 

I will cling, innocent until proven guilty I say. Though I would assume the sources are reliable otherwise SI wouldn't print it. However, these sources it seems funny, why has only A-Rod been named. It seems like they have an ax to grid with him, maybe for good reason. I really will not pass judgment until a clearer picture of the whole thing comes out. I would really like to actually see the full list of all 104 players.

 

So going on the assumption that A-Rod did take steroids what do you do to him? Does he get the punishment first time offense? Does he banned from the HOF? What do you do? What would you do to Andy Pettite or Jason Gambi? Admitted steroid users. Are they subject to more or less punishment then A-Rod? What about Roger Clemmens? That has been my question all along. I have not heard a good answer on that.

[Lammycat]

It is largely being ignored. Nobody has talked about it nearly as much as A-Rod. To me, another player using isn't that big of a deal because I truly do believe that a majority of players used at least once (And that is all there is evidence of for Rodriguez). But that the #2 guy in the players association was tipping players off should be a way bigger deal. People should be getting fired.

 

And that just further reinforces my view that there was very little reason to not take steroids, since there was no penalty, very little chance of being caught at the time, and you were being protected by the people who should have been trying to clean the game up.

 

 

Hence, cheating is justified. Horses shit.

 

A-rod has built a reputation and bank account on being on the level. He wasn't. That alone should stand.

 

Crying that A-rod was wronged when he did the wrong is mind-boggling to me. I guess it boils down to some folks just accepting of the era and wanting to cast blame anywhere but the true source. Jeez, you cheat and get caught you shouldn't be pointing fingers at everyone else. Whether it was generally accepted or not doesn't matter. It boils down to personal decisions. My take, at least.

[bobbob1313]

I'm really interested in seeing how baseball handles this era in history. I really hope they embrace it, because it really is an important part of the game's history, and we shouldn't hide from it. This is my fear, that they are going to try to pin it on a few guys and then just sweep them out and pretend everything else is honky-dory.

 

Who is crying that A-Rod was wrong? Who is casting blame anywhere but the true source? A-Rod took the steroids, so he should take the blame for his own actions. But nearly everyone involved with the game deserves some level of blame, and nobody is really ever going to take the blame except a handful of players.

[bjorn_skurj]

Hmm, eternal shame and taint or millions upon millions of dollars. Tough decision.

 

And the list absolutely should not be released. A-Rod's name should have never come out. So much for anonymous testing.

I would argue that it's unfair to Mr. Rod that his name is the only one released. (Dude on the radio alleges Mitchell's office did it as a pro-Red Sox conspiracy to punish the Yankees for signing Teixeira.)

[Lammycat]

I will cling, innocent until proven guilty I say. Though I would assume the sources are reliable otherwise SI wouldn't print it. However, these sources it seems funny, why has only A-Rod been named. It seems like they have an ax to grid with him, maybe for good reason. I really will not pass judgment until a clearer picture of the whole thing comes out. I would really like to actually see the full list of all 104 players.

 

So going on the assumption that A-Rod did take steroids what do you do to him? Does he get the punishment first time offense? Does he banned from the HOF? What do you do? What would you do to Andy Pettite or Jason Gambi? Admitted steroid users. Are they subject to more or less punishment then A-Rod? What about Roger Clemmens? That has been my question all along. I have not heard a good answer on that.

The ax to grind has to do with the fact that A-rod, Bonds, Clemens are all HoF candidates and have reached milestones in the sport under unsavory tactics. Plain and simple.

 

A-Rod is not subject to punitive measures because of the nature of the testing and subsequent (non) consequences. I'm fine with that. If it costs him a HoF induction I'm absolutely fine with that as well.

 

What do you do with Clemens? Pettitte? Giambi? Let the chips fall where they may. Pettitte and Giambi came clean with admitting their wrongs and nobody talks about it much anymore. Clemens takes the Bonds route and looks like an even bigger ass and will probably not get into the HoF. His own fault. No fingers to point at to blame, imo.

[bobbob1313]

It is absolutely unfair, but that's how these things go. It is unfair that Bonds' and Giambi's testimony before the grand juries has been leaked as well. This is the nature of our culture.

[Lammycat]

Who is crying that A-Rod was wrong? Who is casting blame anywhere but the true source? A-Rod took the steroids, so he should take the blame for his own actions. But nearly everyone involved with the game deserves some level of blame, and nobody is really ever going to take the blame except a handful of players.

The few guys that this is being "pinned on" have all risen above the average player. Questioning the validity of that is part of the deal with all of this.

[Lammycat]

Unfair = cheating. Not cheating and getting caught cheating.

[John Smith]

I'm really interested in seeing how baseball handles this era in history. I really hope they embrace it, because it really is an important part of the game's history, and we shouldn't hide from it. This is my fear, that they are going to try to pin it on a few guys and then just sweep them out and pretend everything else is honky-dory.

 

I think that how baseball is handling this era is on full display here. I say they will do all they can to sweep iit under the rug and make sure that the only ones who get caught now are the lower tiers of players. The stars, the box office draws if you will, will be protected.

[KevinG]

I am gonna try to turn this conversation to something a hell of lot more fun:

 

Cubs Pitchers and Catchers report in 4 days!

 

Awesome!

[bobbob1313]

I think that how baseball is handling this era is on full display here. I say they will do all they can to sweep iit under the rug and make sure that the only ones who get caught now are the lower tiers of players. The stars, the box office draws if you will, will be protected.

 

That makes me sad. We should embrace every side of our history, the good and the bad because it shows how the game got to where it is in the present. Ty Cobb, Ray Chapman, the Black Sox, Pete Rose, the 1994 strike are all important parts of the game's history that have shaped the game and it would be a disservice to future generations of fans if they ignored it.

[bobbob1313]

Some more interesting tidbits regarding the "legality" of steroids within the game:

 

For those who believe that steroids were against the rules of MLB beginning in 1991, I suggest you follow this link to MLB.com:

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/news/drug_policy.jsp?content=timeline

 

It states that in 1998: "A jar of androstenedione is discovered in the locker of St. Louis slugger Mark McGwire. . . McGwire admits he uses the steroids precursor and goes on to hit a then record 70 homers. Using steroids, precursors or performance-enhancing drugs is not illegal at that point in Major League Baseball."

 

Again, this is from the MLB website itself. Despite what the media widely has reported, including the CNNSI.com article today, the memo issued by Commissioner Fay Vincent in 1991 prohibiting steroids in baseball did not apply to players who were members of the MLBPA. Nor did the memo issued in 1997 by Commissioner Bud Selig reiterating the prohibition of steroids apply to players who were members of the MLBPA.

 

Also, as I noted in my earlier post, Bud Selig has admitted to this under sworn oath before the U.S. Congress. In the 2005 hearing on steroids in baseball, the following exchange occurred between Congressman Henry Waxman and Selig:

 

"Mr. Waxman: Let me interrupt you, because I have limited time. In 1991, it became baseball's drug policy the possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players and personnel is strictly prohibited. Those were the rules in 1991.

 

Mr. Selig: They were not the rules. They were not enforceable. They were our statement of purpose, but they had to be collectively bargained."

 

For the full transcript of the hearing, see http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/ge...id=f:23038.wais

[ZenLunatic]

I am gonna try to turn this conversation to something a hell of lot more fun:

 

Cubs Pitchers and Catchers report in 4 days!

 

Awesome!

 

 

Yahooo!!!! Lets start the pressure on the Cubs again and expect them to win the World Series this year again.

[John Smith]

Some more interesting tidbits regarding the "legality" of steroids within the game:

 

Also, Andro was not illegal back then. The conventional wisdom is that McGwire put the andro in a position to be seen during interviews to make it appear as if that was his legal drug of choice and to distract people who might be looking into illegal or banned substances.

[Winston Legthigh]

Meh. There will be no discernable downturn in attendance this year (other than what's related to our shitty economy), which means the fans really don't give a shit about this whole steroids conundrum...

[bobbob1313]

So, with A-Rod he broke baseball's rules, but not America's. For the guys during the 90's, they broke America's rules, but not baseball's.

 

So A-Rod is on par with Gaylord Perry (baseball's rules, not America's), and Mark McGwire is Darryl Strawberry (America's rules, no baseball's).

 

 

 

He'll have a full interview with Gammons air later today.

 

But, they just broke on ESPN that he admits to using PEDs in the interview.

 

More to come...

 

EDIT

 

He says he started using after signing with the Texas Rangers. Said he felt he had a ton of pressure on him after signing the biggest contract in the history of baseball and that he wanted to make sure he was worth the money. Claims it was a lapse of judgment while in an organization that ran a "very loose" clubhouse with respect to steroid use.

 

Solely admits to use from 2001 - 2003 while with Texas. Claims to be clean as of 2004.

[Lammycat]

Meh. There will be no discernable downturn in attendance this year (other than what's related to our shitty economy), which means the fans really don't give a shit about this whole steroids conundrum...

That's a broad stroke. Regardless of what the fans think and semantics with years/illegality/baseball policy, sure-fire HoFers will most likely be denied that honor.

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

We don't really know what A-Rod took and didn't we know what came up in a single test--I figure he was taking that and may have been taking more.

[bobbob1313]

We don't really know what A-Rod took and didn't we know what came up in a single test--I figure he was taking that and may have been taking more.

 

I thought it was confirmed to be Primobolan, a prohormone which didn't become illegal until "President Bush signed into law the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 2004 (118 Stat. 1661). [2] The bill was written to become effective in 90 days, which was January 20, 2005. This legislation places both anabolic steroids and prohormones on a list of controlled substances (a new type of "regulatory control").[citation needed] This bans the selling or possessing of all prohormones."

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

This was what was confirmed to be in the test. But was that the only thing he was taking?

[Winston Legthigh]

That's a broad stroke. Regardless of what the fans think and semantics with years/illegality/baseball policy, sure-fire HoFers will most likely be denied that honor.

True - but what kind of value can be placed on that? Shoeless Joe isn't in the Hall, but that doesn't mean that he's been forgotten. What is the Hall of Fame for if not to preserve memories of the heros of the game? The fact that Pete Rose isn't in has done nothing to diminish his fame.

 

My problem with this whole thing is that I view it as a huge black eye on the integrity of the league. But I don't think the sportswriters have any motivation to present it that way. I'm in the minority. Fuck em. MLB won't get my money anymore. But, I doubt they'll miss my two or three games worth of attendance anyway.