MLB 2008-09 Hot Stove II

[bobbob1313]

That and testosterone. I have to admit, I don't know what the legality of that is.

 

And as always, Baseball Prospectus really nails this issue for me, in a column by Joe Sheehan. Here's an exerpt that sums it up:

 

Knowing Alex Rodriguez used PEDs, in the context of those names, isn't information that changes anything. A great baseball player did bad things with the implicit approval—hell, arguably explicit approval—of his peers and his employers. It's cheating, yes, which would be a problem if we hadn't been celebrating cheating in baseball since the days when guys would go first to third over the pitcher's mound. You can argue that it's different in degree, though the widely accepted use of PEDs by peers and superiors, and the use of amphetamines before them, is a strong point against that case. What is clear is that it's not different enough, in degree, to warrant the kind of histrionics we're reading and hearing over this. It's not different enough to turn Alex Rodriguez into a pi

[redpillbox]

"I remain skeptical that PED use is connected to performance in a way that warps the game..."

 

I mean, I understand what he's trying to say, but seriously? Do you just gloss over the inflated HR totals, totals which have SEVERELY dropped after the ban went into effect? The great thing about baseball, why it's such a fantastic game built on tradition, is the numbers involved. The fact that you could look at the back of two baseball cards from two completely different eras and see how two players stacked up to one another. With the added variable of steroids and PEDs I don't see how you can argue that that comparison is viable anymore.

[John Smith]

A-Rod to ESPN: I took banned substance

February 9, 2009 1:54 PM | No Comments

NEW YORK -- In an interview he did with ESPN today, New York Yankees baseball star Alex Rodriguez admits using performance-enhancing drugs from 2001 to 2003 .

 

"I did take a banned substance. For that, I'm very sorry and deeply regretful," Rodriguez told the network's Peter Gammons.

 

Sports Illustrated reported Saturday that Rodriguez had tested positive for steroids in 2003, the same year in which he won the American League home run championship and was named the league MVP for the Texas Rangers.

 

Citing four anonymous sources, the magazine said Rodriguez tested positive for two anabolic steroids, testosterone and a steroid with the brand name of Primobolan.

 

Saying he "felt an enormous pressure" to perform when he played for Texas in 2003, Rodriguez told ESPN today that "I was young. I was stupid, I was naive. I wanted to prove to everyone I was worth being one of the greatest players of all time."

 

He went on to apologize to Rangers' fans and to say that he hadn't used any performance-enahncing drugs since being traded to the Yankees in 2004.

 

Rodriguez's name appears on a 104-player list of those who tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs during Major League Baseball's testing in 2003, according to the magazine. The results were supposed to remain anonymous, but Rodriguez's testing information was found after federal agents took the test results from a California firm as part of a government investigation into the BALCO scandal. Sports Illustrated said its sources were familiar with the evidence the government got in that case.

 

Rodriguez played for the Rangers in 2003, when he won the AL home run title and MVP award. He was traded to the Yankees in 2004. He is drawing a major league-high $27 million salary after signing a record $275 million, 10-year contract with New York in 2007.

 

 

 

As for me, anyone who doubt steroids effects ont he game need only look at the record books. How many guys hit more than 50 homers in the 50 years before Brady Anderson? How many since? And don't forget the pitchers. See how many records have been falling and statistics piling up at record rates over the last ten years in all phases of the game. Now look at the situation siince the testing and routines got a little git tougher? Case closed.

[Winston Legthigh]

The fact that you could look at the back of two baseball cards from two completely different eras and see how two players stacked up to one another. With the added variable of steroids and PEDs I don't see how you can argue that that comparison is viable anymore.

There are a LOT of reasons, other than steroids and PEDs, that a comparison between eras isn't viable. Dead-ball era and pitcher's mound height just to name two...

[bobbob1313]

"I remain skeptical that PED use is connected to performance in a way that warps the game..."

 

I mean, I understand what he's trying to say, but seriously? Do you just gloss over the inflated HR totals, totals which have SEVERELY dropped after the ban went into effect? The great thing about baseball, why it's such a fantastic game built on tradition, is the numbers involved. The fact that you could look at the back of two baseball cards from two completely different eras and see how two players stacked up to one another. With the added variable of steroids and PEDs I don't see how you can argue that that comparison is viable anymore.

 

"a conclusion supported by the evidence that proven use is mixed among hitters and pitchers, among good players and fringe ones, among the strong and the skinny. The establishment of a testing program with penalties does appear to have been a deterrent, as evidenced by the drop from 104 positives in 2003 to fewer than that number in total in the five years since."

 

It makes a lot less sense when you take it out of context.

 

And home run totals today are essentially the same as they were in 1998. There was a huge spike from like 2000-2002, but it's leveled off since then.

 

And you absolutely cannot look at two cards from different eras and see how they stacked up, because there are hundreds of factors that can change offensive levels from one period to the other, including ballparks, pitching mound, strike zone rules, general offensive levels for the era itself, and hundreds of others.

[embiggen]

A-Rod to ESPN: I took banned substance

February 9, 2009 1:54 PM | No Comments

NEW YORK -- In an interview he did with ESPN today, New York Yankees baseball star Alex Rodriguez admits using performance-enhancing drugs from 2001 to 2003 .

 

"I did take a banned substance. For that, I'm very sorry and deeply regretful," Rodriguez told the network's Peter Gammons.

 

I suprised he was man enough to admit this.

[cryptique]

I suprised he was man enough to admit this.

[PigSooie]

Do you have that same pic with the Hamburger Helper dude hand?

[Winston Legthigh]

Primobolan.

 

Electric Warrior = Primobolan.

[embiggen]

Do you have that same pic with the Hamburger Helper dude hand?

 

 

oh god I know. SOMEONE must have this somewhere.

[PigSooie]

I don;t think this was it.

 

[embiggen]

I don;t think this was it.

 

 

 

I think it is!

[MattZ]

These guys that admit their steroid use "once or twice" (Pettite) or "back in 2001" (ARod) can go f*(k themselves if they think I am going to believe them. I dont know why this annoys me so much, but it's one thing if you lie. Its another thing if you lie when you come clean. Seriously. Long walk/short pier.

[John Smith]

I suprised he was man enough to admit this.

 

He had to have looked at the way Clemens and Pettite handled themselves last year and decided that the Pettite route wqas a better PR move.

[bobbob1313]

These guys that admit their steroid use "once or twice" (Pettite) or "back in 2001" (ARod) can go f*(k themselves if they think I am going to believe them. I dont know why this annoys me so much, but it's one thing if you lie. Its another thing if you lie when you come clean. Seriously. Long walk/short pier.

 

So you think A-Rod has used since 2003?

[MattZ]

He had to have looked at the way Clemens and Pettite handled themselves last year and decided that the Pettite route wqas a better PR move.

 

As I said above, the guy didn't admit jack. He was busted red handed. He is claiming that he only did it in Texas. I don't believe it for a second. He is only admitting what he needs to admit and this has PR written all over it. Good for him, I guess, but he gets no points from me for honesty.

 

So you think A-Rod has used since 2003?

 

I dont know. But I dont believe a word out of that guys mouth. And you know what? It's his fault.

 

ARod insisted the pressure in Texas was why he started to do it? Really? What about the pressure in NY?

[bobbob1313]

I don't think he's used since 2003. Because he would've been suspended if he had. Pretty obvious.

 

It's amazing to see how people of different sportswriting "generations" react to this:

 

Rob Neyer, an internet writer:

Today -- Feb. 7, 2009 -- a date which will live in infamy

[bjorn_skurj]

Madden also writes for a tabloid, where irrationality is Job One.

[John Smith]

So you think A-Rod has used since 2003?

 

I do think he has as did Pettite and probably most of the 104 who were caught.

 

BTW bobbob, steroid users are work out fanatics (see clemens 4 or 5 workouts a day schedule). That is the whole point of steroid use. If I found out that a guy is lazy about working out and reported to camp a little out of shape, he would be the one I would guess is not using.

 

As I said above, the guy didn't admit jack. He was busted red handed. He is claiming that he only did it in Texas. I don't believe it for a second. He is only admitting what he needs to admit and this has PR written all over it. Good for him, I guess, but he gets no points from me for honesty.

 

I wasn't commenting on what he admitted, just that he probably saw that Pettite was able to handle it much better PR standpoint than Clemens was. Since then Pettite is pretty much a non-entity on the steroid issue, while Clemens is right in the front row with Bonds and now ARod.

[bobbob1313]

Didn't all of the giambi rumors start when he showed up 20 pounds heavy or something?

[John Smith]

Didn't all of the giambi rumors start when he showed up 20 pounds heavy or something?

 

Heavy? or weight gain from steroid workouts? Actually I thought Giambi went public when it was learned that he had testified before the BALCO grand jury that he had used roids.

[MattZ]

I wasn't commenting on what he admitted, just that he probably saw that Pettite was able to handle it much better PR standpoint than Clemens was. Since then Pettite is pretty much a non-entity on the steroid issue, while Clemens is right in the front row with Bonds and now ARod.

 

Yeah, sorry. I was responding to Flick's point about being surprised that he was man enough to admit it.

[MattZ]

I don't think he's used since 2003. Because he would've been suspended if he had. Pretty obvious.

 

Bobbob - testing always lags designer drugs. If these guys were dumb enough to get busted when they knew there would be random anonymous testing, they'd be dumb enough to use HGH or any other PED that cant be caught. Now, there's no evidence one way or the other, and the guy is innocent until proven guilty, but I saw that 60 Minutes episode and he lied to the camera then. If I dont believe him now, he has himself to blame.

 

And you want to tell me that you believe that the "pressure" of Texas did this? But the pressure of Yankees fans and a Boston rivalry were no big deal? Fine, but I wont believe you.

[bobbob1313]

Well, for the people who tested positive in 03, they were garaunteed that there would be anonimity and MLB really dropped the ball in regards to that, because there was no reason for them to even label the samples or keep the results. A-Rod may have a lawsuit, and I expect that to be a major sticking point for the PA when the next CBA comes around.

 

So I wouldn't say they are dumb, necessarily for continuing their use into 2003. Just looking to maintain that edge when there were still no penalties for doing so.

[Lammycat]

"I don't really care that Alex Rodriguez used steroids."- Joe Sheehan. This sums up that article pretty well. So he doesn't care? Plenty of other people do.

 

I'm not suggesting A-Rod used after 2003 but I would not be surprised if he did. His numbers do not spike like Bonds' do after his initial use. This leads me to wonder if he's been using them all along. Canseco said in his book that A-Rod's been using them since high school. Yeah, it's Canseco. But hasn't canseco been pretty much on target with all his other accusations?

 

I think B2 is on to something about writers from different generations, too. I've long held that younger fans care less about steroid use than older fans, in a broad/general way.