Can someone please explain the Tweedy "Living Room Shows"?

[Analogman]

The statement regarding what's allowed with regards to Jeff/Wilco shows at places such as Dime a Dozen, bt.etree, etc. will have to be amended. It will have to be something official, I believe - not something written by a fan or message board moderator.

[gogo]

True enough.

 

Oh, and I'd like to congratulate srmt for successfully navigating the new look of the board. It's still making me nuts.

[Bart]

This set of discs in particular is already cut up like this:

1. Banter track

2. Song

3. Banter track #2

4. Song #2

etc.

 

So if you only want to hear songs, just hit the "next" button or reburn the disc but only select every other track.

 

In the Grateful Dead and Bob Dylan taping world, a bunch of people have remastered live recordings, but when they post them they always make it clear that this is a "Mad Cow" remaster or a "Bertha" remaster so everyone knows that someone has tweaked the sound. I've heard a lot of these and often they sound better.....cleaner, less muddy, etc. Sometimes they just sound like someone has turned up the bass way too high though.

 

Also, if they really wanted to keep these shows only circulated to only those who attended, then they would have not allowed taping. But even that's a bit of joke/stretch. Bob Dylan doesn't allow taping of his shows, yet every show is recorded by mulitple sources. The only way to truly ensure that your stuff is not going to be recorded is to:

 

1) Suck

2) Not play live

[Analogman]

True enough.

 

Oh, and I'd like to congratulate srmt for successfully navigating the new look of the board. It's still making me nuts.

 

It may be wishful thinking, but the more I think about it, I swear there was a thread that contained discussion with regards to it being ok for the shows to be put out there.

[Bart]

The statement regarding what's allowed with regards to Jeff/Wilco shows at places such as Dime a Dozen, bt.etree, etc. will have to be amended. It will have to be something official, I believe - not something written by a fan or message board moderator.

 

To do that would be a crime against music.

[Analogman]

I think all the bands allowed at say Dime A Dozen for example, have some sort of clause with regards to what is allowed and what is not.

 

What is DIME's policy regarding specifications/limitations taper-friendly artists/bands put on their taping/trading permissions?

 

When an artist does the taper/trader community the courtesy of explicitly allowing some taping and trading of their performances, DIME returns the courtesy by respecting the specifications/limitations that the artist puts on that permission.

 

Here is what the statement is regarding Wilco shows:

 

Not allowed artists and bands

 

Recordings of these artists and bands may not be shared using DIME's tracker:

 

Wilco (in terms of audience video)

[tstrapac]

This set of discs in particular is already cut up like this:

1. Banter track

2. Song

3. Banter track #2

4. Song #2

etc.

 

 

Not true for all these shows.

[Bart]

Not true for all these shows.

 

Yeah, I was talking about the 3-3-07 one specifically.

[Analogman]

Note - all of the Living Room Shows have now been removed from The Wilco Archive.

[Bart]

YEAH!!!! We've solved a problem that didn't exist AND got the added benefit of denying fans some great music. Two for the price of one.

 

Some well intentioned, but horribly misguided Grateful Dead fans did something similar a few years ago and kept asking questions about sharing live shows until some band attorney finally said, "No, you can't do that". And then a whole bunch of soundboard recordings were pulled from a live archive. And this was the GRATEFUL DEAD! The band that practically "invented" taping shows. They certainly invented the "taper's section" and "taper tickets".

 

I look at Wilco in a similar light....they allow taping, they allow trading. They do radio broadcats and webcasts. Etc, etc. They've been very generous, but now it seems like someone feels the need to ask them, "Do you really want to let people tape yours shows? Do you really want to let people trade them? Really? Are you sure?"

 

With any luck in a couple months the band will have a new policy......no taping, no trading. Only then will we be able to claim victory.

[Analogman]

To be clear, we are talking about a private show, so to speak, not a regular live show where anyone can buy a ticket and see the band. I think we should just let it go and move on. There are hundreds of Jeff/Wilco shows out there for people to grab and listen to, so it does not seem like such a big deal to me that a few were removed by request.

 

 

I believe part of the GD SBD deal had to do with the band and their management team gearing up to sell copies of all the soundboard tapes. And, sort of like what we have going on here, they were only removed from Archive.org. Actually, they were not removed, but left up so that people can stream them. I still see GD SBD tapes posted at various BT sites almost everyday, so there you go.

[Guest Speed Racer]

I look at Wilco in a similar light....they allow taping, they allow trading. They do radio broadcats and webcasts. Etc, etc. They've been very generous, but now it seems like someone feels the need to ask them, "Do you really want to let people tape yours shows? Do you really want to let people trade them? Really? Are you sure?"

 

With any luck in a couple months the band will have a new policy......no taping, no trading. Only then will we be able to claim victory.

 

Wilco is flippin' generous. Really flippin' generous. Ridiculously, unnecessarily generous.

 

Read that part again.

 

Off the bat, Jeff said no to circulation of these shows, there was a miscommunication where people thought otherwise, and now it's resolved. They were never supposed to be available to everyone, so no one has been 'denied' anything. No one got anything taken away from them. They allow fans access to, what, 99.1% of Wilco's world, and you're complaining about 0.9% Really?

 

You're complaining because you can't have sprinkles on your "free sheet cake for life" deal.

[Bart]

I think I'll respond in a couple of different posts because you seem to be attacking me on a couple different fronts.

[Bart]

Forgive me for not knowing how to quote your message, but you wrote:

 

"Wilco is flippin' generous. Really flippin' generous. Ridiculously, unnecessarily generous.

 

Read that part again."

 

Point 1: Dude, I agree that they are generous and cool and fan friendly and all that, but if they pulled all that generosity back, in reality not much would change. People would still tape shows, people would still trade shows. That's just reality in today's world. Recorders and mics are so small that you would have to strip search people to ensure they didn't bring those things into shows. Bob Dylan does not allow taping but all his shows are taped by multiple sources and and are usually available within 24 hours of the performance. That's just life in 2009.

 

Point 2: Their generosity does more to help them than to hurt them. By allowing taping and trading they build a fan base at no cost to the band. These fans then come buy tickets to the shows and also buy albums. The Grateful Dead built a HUGE following simply by allowing the taping and trading of their shows. They never had a radio hit but would sell out Madison Square Garden for 6 shows in a row every fall. They were highest grossing live band every year from 90 - 95 and it was all due to great live shows and great live tapes.

 

I'm not trying to say that the only reason that Wilco allows taping is to line their pockets, but I think it ultimately helps them in every way. Remember YHF? At the time it was their best selling album, yet it was available for free download for what, 2 years before it came out? The kind of generosity we're talking about makes money for the band, it doesn't take money from the band.

[gogo]

I don't think anyone's disagreeing with those points, are they? We're talking about a total of maybe 10 shows. A very specific, very tiny subcategory of shows.

 

And in fact, I'd guess that a very large chunk of the Wilco-fan population find those particular shows unlistenable anyway.

 

So I really don't see what the damage is here.

[Analogman]

I think you are talking about something different than what is going down. It's a different deal than what is covered in their taping policy - the problem is, there was/is no language about the so-called living shows, and therefore, at some point they were put out there for everyone to grab. As we see now, that was done in error. We are taking steps to correct that, and we are still being allowed to tape and share regular Jeff/Wilco shows. I seek and work on collecting Wilco shows almost everyday, and now have over 300 GB of Wilco shows, and I can tell you that this the first time we have been asked to remove anything.

[Guest Speed Racer]

Taping policy is not the generosity I'm referring to, though it is a part of the whole. This band allows a TON of fan access, in part because fans are very respectful of the few lines the band does draw. Does it help them make money? Probably. Would it drastically change their bottom line to reign things in now? Not at all.

 

What I am saying is that all that has happened in this thread is that someone from the Wilco camp stated, "No, the line you think is 'here' is actually here," and most of us said, "Oops!" and hopped back a few steps.

 

I think that a policy of, "no distribution of private shows taped in a private residence, for a charity auction, to persons not in attendence," is an asterisk so small you can't hardly see it.

[Bart]

Quote 2:

 

"Off the bat, Jeff said no to circulation of these shows, there was a miscommunication where people thought otherwise, and now it's resolved. They were never supposed to be available to everyone, so no one has been 'denied' anything. No one got anything taken away from them. They allow fans access to, what, 99.1% of Wilco's world, and you're complaining about 0.9% Really?"

 

I'm unclear on who said what to whom. If you read this thread there are various points of view representing all sides of the arguement. To me it's all a bunch of internet chatter. Maybe one of the above statements is the gospel truth, but I don't know which one it is.

 

Forgetting all that, I really question idea that Jeff would play a show that he knew was taped and then expected those recording to not be circulated beyond an elite little group. It seems counter productive in many ways. One, it breeds a class system within the fans....."Only I am important enough to hear this, not you peasant". Two, the recordings themselves are advertisments for future shows that will continue to benefit the charity. Shit, I'm thinking about putting a portion of my paycheck into a separate account to stockpile funds for the next goround of Living Room Shows.

[Analogman]

Hopefully, someone gives us something official - that can be added to the language the we see under Wilco's listing on various BT sites. Personally, I am more worried about the people who keep posting AUD video in the After The Show section, when it has been stated not to do so.

[Guest Speed Racer]

I'm unclear on who said what to whom. If you read this thread there are various points of view representing all sides of the arguement. To me it's all a bunch of internet chatter. Maybe one of the above statements is the gospel truth, but I don't know which one it is.

 

I believe srmt is generally gospel truth on such matters.

 

Forgetting all that, I really question idea that Jeff would play a show that he knew was taped and then expected those recording to not be circulated beyond an elite little group. It seems counter productive in many ways. One, it breeds a class system within the fans....."Only I am important enough to hear this, not you peasant". Two, the recordings themselves are advertisments for future shows that will continue to benefit the charity. Shit, I'm thinking about putting a portion of my paycheck into a separate account to stockpile funds for the next goround of Living Room Shows.

 

The Living Room Shows aren't really short on participants - I'm pretty sure LRS is not in need of a marketing campaign. It's not rocket science: kind person makes reasonable request, other kind people agree to terms of request. In this case, kind people misheard, and are retroactively adhering to reasonable request.

[aricandover]

this exactly why we never made the very first available to anyone.

[tstrapac]

...I really question idea that Jeff would play a show that he knew was taped and then expected those recording to not be circulated beyond an elite little group. It seems counter productive in many ways. One, it breeds a class system within the fans....."Only I am important enough to hear this, not you peasant".

 

 

this exactly why we never made the very first available to anyone.

 

Bart might be on to something here...

[Shakespeare In The Alley]

It's not a class system at all. These weren't regular shows. People paid good money (more than a regular Wilco/Jeff show) to get a special experience, and hang out with Jeff, more or less. Why should those be available to everyone? I understand that it's inevitable that they will, but it's not ridiculous at all for Jeff to request these shows to remain private.

 

Considering how intimate, and personal these shows are, I don't see why they would appeal to people who wasnn't there.

[Analogman]

Dudes, we have been down this road before. Your jabbing is going to turn into people giving you hell, and then, more jabbing from you. Why don't you just drop it and move on? If you have the bread, you can try and get in on a LRS group next time, or, if you dislike the whole idea of the LRS, you can just let it go and don't worry about it.

[tstrapac]

Me listening to any of these shows takes absolutely nothing away from the people that were there live. I am not saying Jeff is wrong for not wanting them distributed, but the reason you stated seems silly and selfish to me.

 

You could make the same argument about a small solo show at a club. "But I paid 30$ a ticket and waited in line for 4 hours, you shouldn't be able to sit and home and listen to it for free!"

 

I don't know any of you personally but some of these comments come across to me as very selfish. Every time I have seen a band do something interesting or different in a live venue I have always wished that every fan of that band could be there with me to witness and enjoy it.

 

Again, if the performer does not want a show distributed, fine by me, its your songs, your deal, but fans complaining that it makes the show "less special" for the people that attended is ludicrous.