Now I remember why I was an independent all those years.

[kidsmoke]

I just want to point out that that was panther's 666th post.

 

Also, dude, what's up with everybody calling one another dude like it was Miley Cyrus day or something, dude?

[mountain bed]

 

 

 

 

Are you serious? Republicans offered several proposals that provided alternative ways to reform healthcare. They even detailed many of these proposals in the healthcare summit. They just didn't get anywhere in a Democrat-controlled government. Just because Democrats ignored minority bills doesn't mean they didn't exist.

I didn't go back to the last 4 pages to check and see if anyone else mentioned this, but just for the record: this bill does include nearly 200 amendments that were Republican-sponsored ideas.

 

If you want to debate the actual process that birthed this bill that's fine, but you really can't say that the Admin. didn't at least TRY to allow for a different viewpoint.

 

200 things the Right wanted - and yet they still unanimously voted NO. I find this very sad.

[bleedorange]

I didn't go back to the last 4 pages to check and see if anyone else mentioned this, but just for the record: this bill does include nearly 200 amendments that were Republican-sponsored ideas.

 

If you want to debate the actual process that birthed this bill that's fine, but you really can't say that the Admin. didn't at least TRY to allow for a different viewpoint.

 

200 things the Right wanted - and yet they still unanimously voted NO. I find this very sad.

 

If you stuck a chocolate chip on a huge turd, would you still want it?

[kidsmoke]

I didn't go back to the last 4 pages to check and see if anyone else mentioned this, but just for the record: this bill does include nearly 200 amendments that were Republican-sponsored ideas.

 

If you want to debate the actual process that birthed this bill that's fine, but you really can't say that the Admin. didn't at least TRY to allow for a different viewpoint.

 

200 things the Right wanted - and yet they still unanimously voted NO. I find this very sad.

 

Well put, Scott. I agree.

[Panther]

I just want to point out that that was panther's 666th post.

 

Also, dude, what's up with everybody calling one another dude like it was Miley Cyrus day or something, dude?

 

 

shit that just freaked me out i guesse it had to happen sometime , but still i retract that statement basedpurely on superstition.

 

p.s Obamma is a liar , this is how he spends his days , he goes out to a podium spews some utopian bullshit then goes into a room somewhere signing bills to do the opposite of what he says in public. Sorry thats just reality.

[Sandoz]

p.s Obamma is a liar , this is how he spends his days , he goes out to a podium spews some utopian bullshit then goes into a room somewhere signing bills to do the opposite of what he says in public. Sorry thats just reality.

Hi. With all due respect, you should probably learn how to spell your president's name correctly. Forgive me if that was just a "typo"

[Sandoz]

Oh forget it. Looks like you live in Toronto.

Edit: you should probably learn how to spell your my president's name correctly.

That's better.

[ikol]

Health care is like any other public good: the more people that are healthy, the more productive and happy our society is. Just because you don't use roads in another part of the state doesn't make the government a "nanny state" for making you pay taxes that support them.

 

Some of us believe in taxes that help the common good, others don't (and adamantly disagree with the the use of the word "good"), but dude, talking about denying certain people access to things that others have often comes off as pushy.

 

We're not talking about access to anything. We're talking about who should pay. I consider the attitude that you're either for this particular healthcare reform or you're for denying people access to healthcare to be pushy.

[Ghost of Electricity]

If you stuck a chocolate chip on a huge turd, would you still want it?

why stick a chocolate chip on a turd if you know you're not going to eat it?

 

I think this suggests that the republicans knew it would pass, so put a few provisions in there which they wanted, then voted against it (rather than voting their conscience, knowing it would pass anyway) simply so they could later accuse the dems of railroading things through, save up some mud to throw in the future, and generally play bullshit politics. Obama extended the hand to the republicans, if they chose not to take it that doesn't mean that he should stop governing.

[Central Scrutinizer]

I'm all for freedom of people to not comply with treatment and also the freedom of the rest of us to not have to pay for the results, dude. I'm opposed to the nanny state in all its forms, which is a position that is anything but pushy, dude.

 

Are you serious? Republicans offered several proposals that provided alternative ways to reform healthcare. They even detailed many of these proposals in the healthcare summit. They just didn't get anywhere in a Democrat-controlled government. Just because Democrats ignored minority bills doesn't mean they didn't exist.

Name two legitimate ones that would cover as many people as the law of the land does. Name minority bills that existed. They'd be a matter of public record. I went over the summit. The only detailed proposal Republicans offered was "let's start over."

 

Democrats do have a voting majority in both houses. But it's been well demonstrated that Republicans are not without recourse against that majority.

 

The Republicans for six years controlled the executive, legislative and judicial branches (as well as the concessions on the Patriot Act). What got accomplished? Oh yeah, we got a war and the first and most significant deficit spending since, well, Bush I and eight years under Reagan.

 

At least the Democrats accomplished *something*

 

shit that just freaked me out i guesse it had to happen sometime , but still i retract that statement basedpurely on superstition.

 

p.s Obamma is a liar , this is how he spends his days , he goes out to a podium spews some utopian bullshit then goes into a room somewhere signing bills to do the opposite of what he says in public. Sorry thats just reality.

Panther you better keep 666 in. 667 is hardly memorable.

[caliber66]

I didn't go back to the last 4 pages to check and see if anyone else mentioned this, but just for the record: this bill does include nearly 200 amendments that were Republican-sponsored ideas.

 

If you want to debate the actual process that birthed this bill that's fine, but you really can't say that the Admin. didn't at least TRY to allow for a different viewpoint.

 

200 things the Right wanted - and yet they still unanimously voted NO. I find this very sad.

 

 

why stick a chocolate chip on a turd if you know you're not going to eat it?

 

I think this suggests that the republicans knew it would pass, so put a few provisions in there which they wanted, then voted against it (rather than voting their conscience, knowing it would pass anyway) simply so they could later accuse the dems of railroading things through, save up some mud to throw in the future, and generally play bullshit politics. Obama extended the hand to the republicans, if they chose not to take it that doesn't mean that he should stop governing.

 

This is a repost from another board I frequent:

 

How negotiations worked, pretty much

 

"GOP member: 'I'd like this in the bill.'

 

"Dem member response: 'If we put it in, will you vote for the bill?'

 

"GOP member: 'You know I can't vote for the bill.'

 

"Dem member: 'Then why should we put it in the bill?'

[Good Old Neon]

Has anyone talked to Limbaugh to find out when he’s moving, and where he’s moving to? He said on the air that if the bill passes, he would leave the country – I’m just hoping he doesn’t renege on his pledge – cause that would make him a flip flopper – and we all know how he just can’t stand a flippy flopper.

[LouieB]

 

 

200 things the Right wanted - and yet they still unanimously voted NO. I find this very sad.

Yea, it is sad. They don't give a shit about anything. It is all about power and control.

 

Oh and to the poster who said Obama is a liar....nah, he is just a politician..

 

Oh and by the way....everyone flips and flops and everyone contradicts themselves. I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't. Limbaugh isn't moving...he makes too much money doing what he is doing right where he is.

 

LouieB

[Central Scrutinizer]

This is a repost from another board I frequent:

 

How negotiations worked, pretty much

That is a great report, and the previous blurb from the person of being an "Obama Democrat" the way his grandparents were "Roosevelt Democrats."

 

Love him or hate him, Obama was a man of his convictions and, pending the flurry of Republican state lawsuits already mounting, he accomplished this.

 

The Republicans have literally become the "Party of 'No.' "

 

And on the subject of inclusiveness in discussions, there is considerable coverage on how, during their reign on The Hill, of Republican committees meeting without the minority party, changing meetings, denying them voice in proceedings. So, Pot Kettle Black.

[bjorn_skurj]

If you stuck a chocolate chip on a huge turd, would you still want it?

Seeing how close the plan is to Mitt Romney's plan, I think Mitt Romney's feelings will be hurt by you calling a plan like his a turd.

[Guest Speed Racer]

We're talking about who should pay.

 

We certainly are, and as I've said time and again, we're already paying for these kinds of costs - if not in taxes then in higher overall healthcare, public health & safety (and public health & safety costs). The cost these people pay for not being healthy is ultimately a cost we all pay - whether that cost affects or wallets or our communities. And you've said before, time and again, that everything I just said is horseshit.

 

So we disagree, and that's fine. I still think that in not wanting to pay these costs that you're already paying anyway, you're denying people access to a direct route to health care.

[bleedorange]

Seeing how close the plan is to Mitt Romney's plan, I think Mitt Romney's feelings will be hurt by you calling a plan like his a turd.

 

Ok.

 

Republicans didn't like the bill, they passed some amendments to try to make it better, but in the end, it still wasn't a good bill, so they voted no. Everyone can try to spin that whatever way they want.

 

The "Party of 'No'" crap is pretty ridiculous, too.

 

The latest Rasmussen poll from the weekend showed the country opposed to the health care proposal 54% to 41%. And those numbers remained pretty steady for the last 7 months.

 

Sounds like the Party of the People to me.

[LouieB]

We shall see....The GOP could sweep the next elections and retake the White House in 2012. The US of A could be dumb enough to turn it back over to them.

 

LouieB

[Guest Speed Racer]

We shall see....The GOP could sweep the next elections and retake the White House in 2012. The US of A could be dumb enough to turn it back over to them.

 

Does making blanket statements about people you don't know (or - gasp! - people you do know, and even respect) make you any smarter than the GOP?

[Guest Jules]

Does making blanket statements about people you don't know (or - gasp! - people you do know, and even respect) make you any smarter than the GOP?

That's his thing.

 

So, what will the VAT rate be when it is put in?

[Good Old Neon]

 

The "Party of 'No'" crap is pretty ridiculous, too.

 

 

No, really, it’s not – and they’ve said as much.

 

 

The latest Rasmussen poll from the weekend showed the country opposed to the health care proposal 54% to 41%. And those numbers remained pretty steady for the last 7 months.

 

Sounds like the Party of the People to me.

 

As far as polls, well, considering that a not insubstantial number of folks who were against the bill were against the bill due to all the fabricated bullshit coming from the right, and when asked, can’t quite tell you why they oppose it, other than, they just oppose it, or, if they do, they just rattle off republican talking points having to do with socialism and the loss of freedom and what not, I think the polls are pretty much useless. I would argue that at least 75% of the population is completely in the dark with respect to the actualities of the bill, and if the republicans have been successful at one thing, it is fostering confusion in the public’s mind.

 

On the news last night, a reporter doing a “man on the street” type interview asked a random passerby if they were for or against it, he said he was against it, when asked why, he answered that he had heard a bunch of scary, negative things – I would be willing to wager that his opinion reflects 99% of those who opposed it. In order to respond truthfully and intelligently to a poll, you sort of have to know the facts related to what it is your being questioned about, I don't that is the case in this (and about a hundred other) instance(s).

[bleedorange]

No, really, it’s not – and they’ve said as much.

 

 

 

 

As far as polls, well, considering that a not insubstantial number of folks who were against the bill were against the bill due to all the fabricated bullshit coming from the right, and when asked, can’t quite tell you why they oppose it, other than, they just oppose it, or, if they do, they just rattle off republican talking points having to do with socialism and the loss of freedom and what not, I think the polls are pretty much useless. I would argue that at least 75% of the population is completely in the dark with respect to the actualities of the bill, and if the republicans have been successful at one thing, it is fostering confusion in the public’s mind.

 

On the news last night, a reporter doing a “man on the street” type interview asked a random passerby if they were for or against it, he said he was against it, when asked why, he answered that he had heard a bunch of scary, negative things – I would be willing to wager that his opinion reflects 99% of those who opposed it. In order to respond truthfully and intelligently to a poll, you sort of have to know the facts related to what it is your being questioned about, I don't that is the case in this (and about a hundred other) instance(s).

 

It's funny to me how you argue against polls with your own made-up statistics.

[Guest Speed Racer]

That's his thing.

 

ok

 

It's funny to me how you argue against polls with your own made-up statistics.

 

And at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter if voters are informed or not, because that isn't a prerequisite for voting, or even having an opinion.

 

On the other hand, I don't really care about the disparity. A lot of legislation has been passed without popular support that affects the community at large but only directly benefits a minority, and this case seems to be no different.

[Ghost of Electricity]

 

 

The latest Rasmussen poll from the weekend showed the country opposed to the health care proposal 54% to 41%. And those numbers remained pretty steady for the last 7 months.

 

Sounds like the Party of the People to me.

Assuming we can trust the polls (which I don't) that would mean that the Republicans would have to vote 54% to 41% against the plan to accurately represent the American public. Seeing as how they voted 100% to 0%, they are very far from representing the opinion of the American people. The Democrats, having cast both yes and no votes are, mathematically speaking, infinitely closer to representing the public at large.

[MattZ]

Also, in fairness, two points:

 

1. There are very real questions about how those polls are worded, and I have read reports that the breakdown is much closer to 50/50 when folks are asked about the specific ISSUES in the bill (e.g., pre-existing conditions, 30 million americans covered, etc). It's the bill that they oppose. The issues are much less clear.

 

2. With credit to Glenn Greenwald:

 

Dick Cheney and ABC News' Martha Radditz in May, 2008, regarding the administration's escalation of the war at exactly the same time that public demands for withdrawal were at their height:

 

RADDATZ: Two-third of Americans say it’s not worth fighting.

 

CHENEY: So?

 

RADDATZ: So? You don’t care what the American people think?

 

CHENEY: No. I think you cannot be blown off course by the fluctuations in the public opinion polls.