Guest Speed Racer Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 the factories are modern with high tech manufacturing equipment operated by people who have to be trained and paid fairly on a scale appropriate to their respective nations (yes, not our standard of course). Most guitar companies have legal departments that know better than to get involved in something unethical, certainly anything illegal... You and I both know that just because something is legal doesn't make it just. The manufacturing sectors of the world are very lucky in that most raw materials happen to be near the cheapest labor on the planet. I have experience working with the manufacturing industry over here, and if it's worse over there (and we know it is), I find that to be a bit unsettling. But lets be serious here. Is it really an ethical crisis we are discussing here? If so, you better feel worse about the origins of the cup of coffee you drink, the environmental and economic impact of the factory-farm produced food you eat...or the gasoline you burn...or the marijuana you dabble in. If you shop at Wal-mart, you are buying products of far more questionable origin. i agree that one's purchases reflect a sort of complicity or approval of said business practices...but to indict the asian guitar industries as unethical is hypocritical unless you subscribe much more rigid set of buying habits and product research. I'm actually very careful about all of those things (sans Walmart and marijuana, neither of which are relevant to me - I wouldn't go into a Walmart to make a phone call if I was on fire). Especially the coffee, since I'm about two shakes away from injecting it, the way I drink it. Seriously. You asked that question to someone who uses her car maybe once every two weeks, who bikes damn near everywhere, and pays considerable attention to anything that requires her to pull out her wallet. I'm not perfect when it comes to food, and certainly not toilet paper, but I'm pretty good about a lot. That is my choice, and I am the last person to ever push it on anyone. My only point is that I don't find those guitars to be produced in a just environment, according to my set of standards that I do apply to other purchases, and I won't buy guitars that are manufactured in those regions because of that. That, and every guitar I've played from those manufacturing sectors suck donkey ass. I strum a D chord, and it's a C chord by the time it's done ringing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
In a little rowboat Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 You and I both know that just because something is legal doesn't make it just. The manufacturing sectors of the world are very lucky in that most raw materials happen to be near the cheapest labor on the planet. I have experience working with the manufacturing industry over here, and if it's worse over there (and we know it is), I find that to be a bit unsettling. I'm actually very careful about all of those things (sans Walmart and marijuana, neither of which are relevant to me - I wouldn't go into a Walmart to make a phone call if I was on fire). Especially the coffee, since I'm about two shakes away from injecting it, the way I drink it. Seriously. You asked that question to someone who uses her car maybe once every two weeks, who bikes damn near everywhere, and pays considerable attention to anything that requires her to pull out her wallet. I'm not perfect when it comes to food, and certainly not toilet paper, but I'm pretty good about a lot. That is my choice, and I am the last person to ever push it on anyone. My only point is that I don't find those guitars to be produced in a just environment, according to my set of standards that I do apply to other purchases, and I won't buy guitars that are manufactured in those regions because of that. That, and every guitar I've played from those manufacturing sectors suck donkey ass. I strum a D chord, and it's a C chord by the time it's done ringing. Oh, point taken, and I am more swayed by your thoughtfulness and sense of impact in regard to purchasing power...impressed actually. And as I said, I agree with premise that buying a produce is a sort of endorsement. Naomi Klein anyone?? Sorry if you've miss understood my tone...I had to ask those questions more to underscore my point than to call you out personally; I meant those as rhetorical and for the masses. A 'just and fair market' obviously means different things to different folks, and my point was simply that too many people make obtuse statements without any factual reinforcement...and think part of my disagreement with the characterization that foreign made good are unethical really stems from a feeling that the US is not all THAT much better, record-wise, and that there a lot of things going on much worse...as a consumer, you have to draw the line somewhere, but you have certain needs as well... And Id only add that you are in the minority...i think we unfortunately live in a media and market driven world where we are at once conditioned to carry around a certain amount of 'outrage' all the time, but not given the reasons why we are supposed to feel outraged and the follow up to learn from it. FWIW, as a musician my experience has been that most Asian manufactured instruments are horrible players and of inferior quality, and I dont own any. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Speed Racer Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Excellent reply. FWIW, as a musician my experience has been that most Asian manufactured instruments are horrible players and of inferior quality, and I dont own any. That's my biggest beef with them, primarily since my purchasing power far exceeds the price of one of these guitars. The people who purchase these most frequently, in my limited experience, are buying a first guitar (for anyone - themselves, their child, someone else's child). What a horrible introduction to guitar! When I was buying my first electric, the folks at every story I went to were pushing Squiers and Asian-made Epiphones on me. For only $100 more, I could get a quality Mexican-made Fender. I didn't play very well at that point, wee pre-teen that I was, but I had held enough objects in my life to know the difference between quality and shit. I imagine some of the pricier ($400+) Asian-made electrics have a greater playability, but I cannot believe that guitar-playing has the retention rate it does for people whose first experience was with a intro Asian-made. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ghost of Electricity Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 FWIW, as a musician my experience has been that most Asian manufactured instruments are horrible players and of inferior quality, and I dont own any. This is not my experience. I have a 1984 or 5 Gibson 335 and a 2006 Gretsch Historic Series G3161 (Korean made), which are roughly comparable. The 335 is a semi, the Gretsch a full hollowbody, the Gretsch is a single cutaway, the 335 a double. The Gretsch has fewer frets. These are the main differences. The Gretsch is equal to the Gibson in terms of playability, and exceeds it in looks and, most importantly, tone. The Gibson doesn't sound nearly as good. In terms of workmanship the Gretsch is very well built. My only complaint with it is that some of the stock components, the pickup switcher and jack in particular, are pretty cheap. (This is an easy swap that i have not yet got around to doing.) The Gretsch will never have the resale value of the Gibson, it's true, but that is largely because of the Asian-made issue. If the exact same guitar could be labeled "made in USA" it could easily triple in value, because it is at least as good an instrument as the Gibson (except for the switcher and jack). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gobias Industries Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 I imagine some of the pricier ($400+) Asian-made electrics have a greater playability, but I cannot believe that guitar-playing has the retention rate it does for people whose first experience was with a intro Asian-made. I have a $700 (list could be more, given I got it on eBay for that much) Korean-made custom Epiphone Casino that I love playing, so I suppose I support this statement. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Golden Smoghead Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 In terms of workmanship the Gretsch is very well built. My only complaint with it is that some of the stock components, the pickup switcher and jack in particular, are pretty cheap. (This is an easy swap that i have not yet got around to doing.) The Gretsch will never have the resale value of the Gibson, it's true, but that is largely because of the Asian-made issue. If the exact same guitar could be labeled "made in USA" it could easily triple in value, because it is at least as good an instrument as the Gibson (except for the switcher and jack). I totally agree with everything you wrote here. I have a Gretsch Electromatic from that same timeframe, and it sounds fantastic, AND I had to swap out the jack. $500 for guitar + $20 for the jack, but I think that thing sounds like gold. Actually here's me playing it on these demos: My band, it's just me and a drummer and harmonica. Gretsch on both the electric tracks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisFFTA Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 I totally agree with everything you wrote here. I have a Gretsch Electromatic from that same timeframe, and it sounds fantastic, AND I had to swap out the jack. $500 for guitar + $20 for the jack, but I think that thing sounds like gold. Actually here's me playing it on these demos: My band, it's just me and a drummer and harmonica. Gretsch on both the electric tracks. has anyone been to korea (by korea i mean sth)? It is not a third world country and has some of the highest manufacturing standards anywhere in the world. taiwan is also pretty first rate. however the mainland, is pretty random. i used to work in the bicycle industry and the factories there are hideous. lack of safety and suitable training are the norm and the pursuit of a profit over ethics is standard. whether fender or gibson or whomever in the guitar world are uber stringent i dont know... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LittleSavage Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Back to the original topic (sorta), Gibson deserves a boatload of ridicule for these monstrosities: the "zoot suit" Hideous!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gobias Industries Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Back to the original topic (sorta), Gibson deserves a boatload of ridicule for these monstrosities: the "zoot suit" Hideous!! You gotta admit, they're trippy as shit though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DougoBlue Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Just bought a Heritage 535 a couple of months ago and love it. Better in every way than the new Gibsons. Built in Kalamazoo at the old Gibson plant, on the old machinery by people that care. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
In a little rowboat Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Back to the original topic (sorta), Gibson deserves a boatload of ridicule for these monstrosities: the "zoot suit" Hideous!! Jeff used one to close out he memphis show....on 'monday' as i recall Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jff Posted October 15, 2009 Author Share Posted October 15, 2009 Back to the original topic (sorta), Gibson deserves a boatload of ridicule for these monstrosities: the "zoot suit" Hideous!! I kind of like the way those look, but I don't think I could ever own one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Moss Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 That's a beautiful Heritage guitar. I have a friend that just bought a Les Paul from there and he swears by it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisFFTA Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 That's a beautiful Heritage guitar. I have a friend that just bought a Les Paul from there and he swears by it. and i hear thay are doing an andrew stockdale sig SG now ... sheesh... what next? Me? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Moss Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 and i hear thay are doing an andrew stockdale sig SG now ... sheesh... what next? Me? Seriously? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stagerug Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 and i hear thay are doing an andrew stockdale sig SG now ... sheesh... what next? Me? Don't be silly. You're a much better guitarist than Andrew Stockdale. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisFFTA Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 Don't be silly. You're a much better guitarist than Andrew Stockdale. And thats the beauty of the internet. You have zero idea who I am! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anthony Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 Despite Gibby's well-deserved derision, I still am GASing or a Les Paul, an ES-335 and a Hummingbird. I really like the natural top Bird at Fullers: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KramkonG Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 I will say that I am very happy with the quality and playability with my Les Paul Standard...it was always my dream guitar, I got it, I love it and always will...but as far as future solid-body electric purchases go, Gibson will not be on my list. As far as acoustics, my brother owns a Gibson Songwriter Deluxe and he loves it...It plays well, great sound but we are both moving on to much bigger and better things and customizing acoustics with our friend, Luthier Gordy Bischoff. I know not everyone can afford a custom made acoustic, and frankly I'm still not sure I can, but I think this is the only way to perfection. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jmacomber68w Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 On the Gibson front, if any of you want to waste 1K, you can pick up the ugliest of all gibsons... http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Gibson-Electric-Reverse-Flying-V-Limited-Edition?sku=516086 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Moss Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 On the Gibson front, if any of you want to waste 1K, you can pick up the ugliest of all gibsons... http://guitars.music...tion?sku=516086 That is quite ugly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gobias Industries Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I can see that being a great guitar for some Spinal Tap-esque band. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisFFTA Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 good enough for ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anthony Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 On the Gibson front, if any of you want to waste 1K, you can pick up the ugliest of all gibsons... http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Gibson-Electric-Reverse-Flying-V-Limited-Edition?sku=516086 I always thought the regular flying V was god-awful. This is hands down the ugliest guitar ever. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jmacomber68w Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 good enough for ... for who? These pics are not showing up Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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