“It’s more fun talking politics with people who agree with you”

[jakobnicholas]

again. its not honest disagreement over taxes or something. its her LYING calling my party socialists and murderers. i personally dont say that about President Bush. shes a lying asshat

 

 

 

Were you on the moon during Bush's last few years? There were THOUSANDS of Sarah Palin types.....many in the media....who distorted and criticized Bush almost every waking moment.

[u2roolz]

I wanted to dip my toe into this discussion:

 

I think, at least in my eyes and mind, a lot of the amazement is not really about the followers or people.

It's really a question on the how or why or what caused them to think that way. That's more fascinating.

The idea that certain or some people can buy into an ideology through a giant media machine.

I've studied communication media in college (which explains my current lack of employment ) and it's always amazed me by what people consider to be real or factual.

Or how it is really a form of certain attempts at mind control or rather mind/idea forming.

There may be some who say "well, are you blaming the people who buy into it?" That's tough because I'm not sure there's enough of a grass roots movement to find and seek out un-biased news.

It requires a lot of leg work.

 

Of course, one can find great irony that we are talking about a woman and a black man. Isn't it interesting that through the media most of our opinions have changed on these specific groups?

A woman and a person of color were told that they couldn't have the same rights as others (pretty much white men ) Some people agreed with that. Certain shows on television backed that up with certain stereotypes, maybe there were a few subversive examples. I can't think of any.

 

And then a cultural revolution took place. Since I was not around at that time, I can only look back at the images and newspaper clippings to see what happened. My question is: Was that a result of the way the media presented equal rights? Or was there a grass roots movement first and then the media had to present this and change the public opinion? So which came first? I guess the point that I'm trying to make here is this. Were the people aware of their own mistreatment despite the way the media would have them think otherwise? I'd like to think so.

 

So what's really changed since then? Where do we point our collective judgmental finger at? Jon & Kate & The Octo Mom or Balloon Boy? Hey, they provide great distractions. They also show horrible abuses of a little nice invention called television. Are some of us satisfied by getting a grab bag of political ideas from certain major news networks? Are the political blueprints of each party catered to a specific group of people? What I mean is: would certain people feel a certain way on certain issues without stuff being shoved down their throats. Is one party a result of their certain demographic? Or is one demographic a result of their certain party that they follow?

 

Television Is The Drug Of The Nation

[Guest Speed Racer]

Many very smart, well-thinking, great people had their own good reasons to cast a vote for McCain. In their, minds, HE was the better candidate. They didn't vote for him because they're racist or homophobes or Glenn-Beck-T-shirt-Wearing sheep. They just thought he'd make the better President. Just like people who voted Obama, thought Barack would make the better President.

 

Hey, in the middle of August I was pretty excited about the election. Obama v. McCain was a great match-up, and Biden would make a passable VP. I didn't think there was any way the election could turn out poorly.

 

Palin-as-VP nom completely changed the game. The GOP seemed like they had lost their minds, and this daft hockey mom was suddenly on the ballot. The fact that McCain, who I formerly respected, thought that was in any stretch of the imagination a good or even safe choice for VP completely blew all of my faith in him to make a decent decision. Plenty of smart, well-thinking people voted for McCain, but if they thought for a second that Palin was going to be remotely competitent in a national office, they are nuts; if they didn't think so, they are completely irresponsible.

[IRememberDBoon]

Were you on the moon during Bush's last few years? There were THOUSANDS of Sarah Palin types.....many in the media....who distorted and criticized Bush almost every waking moment.

 

 

Name me one that was running for President (there were many Dems in the primaries) that lied about President Bush in that way. Please name one and what they said. Thanks

[myboyblue]

Hey, in the middle of August I was pretty excited about the election. Obama v. McCain was a great match-up, and Biden would make a passable VP. I didn't think there was any way the election could turn out poorly.

 

Palin-as-VP nom completely changed the game. The GOP seemed like they had lost their minds, and this daft hockey mom was suddenly on the ballot. The fact that McCain, who I formerly respected, thought that was in any stretch of the imagination a good or even safe choice for VP completely blew all of my faith in him to make a decent decision. Plenty of smart, well-thinking people voted for McCain, but if they thought for a second that Palin was going to be remotely competitent in a national office, they are nuts; if they didn't think so, they are completely irresponsible.

This is what I'm trying to say.

 

If you are blinded by "your" political party, you are making a bad mistake. I could vote for a Republican or a Democrat. By nature, I'm not partial to either. Though I have always voted for a Democrat as the presidential candidate, that is solely because I believed them to be the best candidate. McCain was the best candidate I have seen the Republicans roll out in 12+years. I liked Obama better but it wasn't solely due to his party affiliation. However, when they trolled out Palin in a very "carl rovian" strategical way, that sealed their fate. Very knee-jerk on that one. McCain ran the worst campaign of anyone I had ever seen...and I saw John Kerry's!!

[Good Old Neon]

Were you on the moon during Bush's last few years? There were THOUSANDS of Sarah Palin types.....many in the media....who distorted and criticized Bush almost every waking moment.

 

Bush deserved just about all the negative attention and criticism he received, and then some. Your continued attempts to equivocate Bush, Obama and Palin, their fans and critics will always fail, as you’re ignoring reality.

 

Again, much of the criticism focused on Obama is entirely fictional and just plain crazy. Contrary to what his critics claim, there exists no evidence to support the death panel charge, or the socialist charge, or the communist charge, or the holocaust equivalency charge or the closet Muslim charge or the hanging out with terrorists charge or the other half dozen or so crazy claims that have issued from the right. However, where Bush is concerned, many of the claims against him turned out to be true, evidence in favor of invading Iraq was cooked, his administration did engage in the use of torture, in some cases, new spying measures introduced in the Patriot Act were abused, need I continue? I certainly can.

 

Liberals were consistently branded as crazy for suggesting as much, fortunately (or unfortunately), they’ve been largely vindicated. Do you think the same will be said of Obama’s critics, that years from now, we will learn that he is a terrorist, or that he was trying to turn us all into socialists, or that he was trying to set up death panels, and that his health care reform was tantamount to the holocaust, etc?

 

As for how the media treated Bush, well, he got away with murder.

[jakobnicholas]

Palin-as-VP nom completely changed the game. The GOP seemed like they had lost their minds, and this daft hockey mom was suddenly on the ballot. The fact that McCain, who I formerly respected, thought that was in any stretch of the imagination a good or even safe choice for VP completely blew all of my faith in him to make a decent decision. Plenty of smart, well-thinking people voted for McCain, but if they thought for a second that Palin was going to be remotely competitent in a national office, they are nuts; if they didn't think so, they are completely irresponsible.

 

 

Many smart people also assumed that if they voted for McCain, he'd survive 4 years.....a very good assumption to make, as we have to go back to Kennedy to see when that didn't happen.

 

When I cast my vote, I NEVER thought I might be casting a vote for the VP to maybe be President.....NEVER. I figured there was maybe a 1% chance that either nominee wouldn't survive in the White House. And I NEVER considered health an issue. McCain has proven to be a very tough cookie. I'd argue that I'd have more concern over Obama's well-being. I could imagine more crazies going after him than McCain.

 

And it didn't bother me that McCain nominated Palin. I liked that he nominated a strong-willed female who had Conservative views. I thought it'd be cool to have an energetic mother of 4 in as the VP. She would be a hell of a lot more exciting than the gasbag in there now.

[IRememberDBoon]

Many smart people also assumed that if they voted for McCain, he'd survive 4 years.....a very good assumption to make, as we have to go back to Kennedy to see when that didn't happen.

 

When I cast my vote, I NEVER thought I might be casting a vote for the VP to maybe be President.....NEVER. I figured there was maybe a 1% chance that either nominee wouldn't survive in the White House. And I NEVER considered health an issue. McCain has proven to be a very tough cookie. I'd argue that I'd have more concern over Obama's well-being. I could imagine more crazies going after him than McCain.

 

And it didn't bother me that McCain nominated Palin. I liked that he nominated a strong-willed female who had Conservative views. I thought it'd be cool to have an energetic mother of 4 in as the VP. She would be a hell of a lot more exciting than the gasbag in there now.

 

 

list the lies from the dem candidates please

[jakobnicholas]

Name me one that was running for President (there were many Dems in the primaries) that lied about President Bush in that way. Please name one and what they said. Thanks

 

 

Umm.....Palin wasn't running for President. I don't have have any quotes, but I know Al Gore took MANY jabs at Bush. John Kerry as well....and Kerry WAS an aspiring President.

 

And is Palin "lying" or just distorting and/or illuminating? Please tell me what lies she's said.

 

 

And you know what, Obama's a big boy. I think he can handle a sassy author throwing out insults.

[mountain bed]

Hey, in the middle of August I was pretty excited about the election. Obama v. McCain was a great match-up, and Biden would make a passable VP. I didn't think there was any way the election could turn out poorly.

 

Palin-as-VP nom completely changed the game. The GOP seemed like they had lost their minds, and this daft hockey mom was suddenly on the ballot. The fact that McCain, who I formerly respected, thought that was in any stretch of the imagination a good or even safe choice for VP completely blew all of my faith in him to make a decent decision. Plenty of smart, well-thinking people voted for McCain, but if they thought for a second that Palin was going to be remotely competitent in a national office, they are nuts; if they didn't think so, they are completely irresponsible.

Exactly. You replace Palin with, say, Kay Bailey Hutchinson and you have what I would consider to be a responsible ticket. McCain BLEW it with his choice.

[IRememberDBoon]

Umm.....Palin wasn't running for President. I don't have have any quotes, but I know Al Gore took MANY jabs at Bush. John Kerry as well....and WAS an aspiring President.

 

And is Palin "lying" or just distorting and/or illuminating? Please tell me what lies she's said.

 

 

And you know what, Obama's a big boy. I think he can handle a sassy author throwing out insults.

 

nothing much apart from calling The President a murderer and communist and so forth. like i said she doesnt just disagree like Sen McCain or someone she lies her fart face off. screw her.

[Good Old Neon]

 

 

And it didn't bother me that McCain nominated Palin. I liked that he nominated a strong-willed female who had Conservative views. I thought it'd be cool to have an energetic mother of 4 in as the VP. She would be a hell of a lot more exciting than the gasbag in there now.

 

William F. Buckely was conservative, Barry Goldwater was conservative – Sarah Palin is not conservative. Oh, she may identify herself as a conservative, but that does not make her a conservative. She’s more like a cross between a dominionist, a Miss America contestant and an asshole.

[jakobnicholas]

She’s more like a cross between a dominionist, a Miss America contestant and an asshole.

 

 

That's how I like my VP's.

 

nothing much apart from calling The President a murderer and communist and so forth.

 

 

Quotes please.

[IRememberDBoon]

That's how I like my VP's.

 

 

 

 

Quotes please.

 

 

shes stood behind her death panel comments numerous times. She says everything he does is leading us down a socialist path. I know im a fan of hers on facebook

[bleedorange]

Exactly. You replace Palin with, say, Kay Bailey Hutchinson and you have what I would consider to be a responsible ticket. McCain BLEW it with his choice.

 

Ugh.

[quarter23cd]

However, when they trolled out Palin in a very "carl rovian" strategical way, that sealed their fate. Very knee-jerk on that one.

I may have read too much into it, but at the time I really saw it as the GOPs Clinton-obsession getting the better of them. Palin was such an off the wall choice--it was hard not to see it as a deliberate attempt to upstage Hillary by getting another woman into executive office first. (and, yes, that's a shallow read on it--but for a candidate who offered such little depth, it was hard not to see the whole thing as a gimmick) I think they shot themselves in the foot on that one. Hillary brings out the crazy in people. They should really learn to use that to their advantage more.

[ikol]

Joe Biden is VP, and so far we've survived despite the fact that he just makes shit up without even knowing it and drinks nonalcoholic beer.

[Basil II]

Joe Biden is VP, and so far we've survived despite the fact that he just makes shit up without even knowing it and drinks nonalcoholic beer.

 

 

-Robert

[jakobnicholas]

shes stood behind her death panel comments numerous times. She says everything he does is leading us down a socialist path. I know im a fan of hers on facebook

 

 

60 Minutes had a piece yesterday talking to doctors about end of life decisions. One doctor said he thinks it'd be best if, at a certain age, people weren't allowed pace-makers 'cause in the long run he didn't think it was worth the price. That opinion might bother a lot of people.

 

Does Obama's bill have such possibilities? I don't know. But if it does, that's probably the sort of "death panels" Palin refers to.

 

Palin's not the ONLY one saying we're going down a socialist path.

[IRememberDBoon]

60 Minutes had a piece yesterday talking to doctors about end of life decisions. One doctor said he thinks it'd be best if, at a certain age, people weren't allowed pace-makers 'cause in the long run he didn't think it was worth the price. That opinion might bother a lot of people.

 

Does Obama's bill have such possibilities? I don't know. But if it does, that's probably the sort of "death panels" Palin refers to.

 

Palin's not the ONLY one saying we're going down a socialist path.

 

okay. my bad

[Good Old Neon]

60 Minutes had a piece yesterday talking to doctors about end of life decisions. One doctor said he thinks it'd be best if, at a certain age, people weren't allowed pace-makers 'cause in the long run he didn't think it was worth the price. That opinion might bother a lot of people.

 

Does Obama's bill have such possibilities? I don't know. But if it does, that's probably the sort of "death panels" Palin refers to.

 

Palin's not the ONLY one saying we're going down a socialist path.

 

I watched 60 Minutes as well, here’s the transcript of the conversation with Dr. Byock:

 

When it comes to expensive, hi-tech treatments with some potential to extend life, there are few limitations.

 

By law, Medicare cannot reject any treatment based upon cost. It will pay $55,000 for patients with advanced breast cancer to receive the chemotherapy drug Avastin, even though it extends life only an average of a month and a half; it will pay $40,000 for a 93-year-old man with terminal cancer to get a surgically implanted defibrillator if he happens to have heart problems too.

 

"I think you cannot make these decisions on a case-by-case basis," Byock said. "It would be much easier for us to say 'We simply do not put defibrillators into people in this condition.' Meaning your age, your functional status, the ability to make full benefit of the defibrillator. Now that's going to outrage a lot of people."

 

"But you think that should happen?" Kroft asked.

 

"I think at some point it has to happen," Byock said.

 

"Well, this is a version then of pulling Grandma off the machine?" Kroft asked.

 

"You know, I have to say, I think that's offensive. I spend my life in the service of affirming life. I really do. To say we're gonna pull Grandma off the machine by not offering her liver transplant or her fourth cardiac bypass surgery or something is really just scurrilous. And it's certainly scurrilous when we have 46 million Americans who are uninsured," Byock said.

 

Here's Palin's description of a death panel:

 

The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s ‘death panel’ so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their ‘level of productivity in society,’ whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.

[myboyblue]

Here's Palin's description of a death panel:

 

The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s ‘death panel’ so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their ‘level of productivity in society,’ whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.

Here's my Mom's reaction to Palin's description of a death panel:

 

"You know I don't want to live in that America either. That Obama is pushing a socialist agenda!!"

[bleedorange]

I watched 60 Minutes as well, here’s the transcript of the conversation with Dr. Byock:

 

When it comes to expensive, hi-tech treatments with some potential to extend life, there are few limitations.

 

By law, Medicare cannot reject any treatment based upon cost. It will pay $55,000 for patients with advanced breast cancer to receive the chemotherapy drug Avastin, even though it extends life only an average of a month and a half; it will pay $40,000 for a 93-year-old man with terminal cancer to get a surgically implanted defibrillator if he happens to have heart problems too.

 

"I think you cannot make these decisions on a case-by-case basis," Byock said. "It would be much easier for us to say 'We simply do not put defibrillators into people in this condition.' Meaning your age, your functional status, the ability to make full benefit of the defibrillator. Now that's going to outrage a lot of people."

 

"But you think that should happen?" Kroft asked.

 

"I think at some point it has to happen," Byock said.

 

"Well, this is a version then of pulling Grandma off the machine?" Kroft asked.

 

"You know, I have to say, I think that's offensive. I spend my life in the service of affirming life. I really do. To say we're gonna pull Grandma off the machine by not offering her liver transplant or her fourth cardiac bypass surgery or something is really just scurrilous. And it's certainly scurrilous when we have 46 million Americans who are uninsured," Byock said.

 

Here's Palin's description of a death panel:

 

The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s ‘death panel’ so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their ‘level of productivity in society,’ whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.

 

You know, I have to say, I think that's offensive.

[bjorn_skurj]

Yeah, Palin (or whoever was pushing her buttons) was dangerously deceptive with all that death panel stuff - see the OpEd posted by Cryptique in the "Spineless" thread for more info. She deserves pretty much all the obloquy she is getting for that, as well as making people have to look at/listen to that tree stump Levi Johnston. I do not consider myself an elitist or closed-minded, but she brings nothing of value to the public discourse, and actually stands in the way of progress by riling up the rile-able. And yes, I don't like intellectually dishonest liberals either, and boy do we get a lot of them in these parts.

[cryptique]

see the OpEd posted by Cryptique in the "Spineless" thread for more info

Uh ... I never posted in that thread...