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When I think of Deeper Down in my head, a lot of percussion fills from BAITUSA get inserted into it, like the triangle (?) from Pretty Sparks.

Me to as far as the precussion fills but only since the Craig Ferguson performance recently. I guess it took a visual to realize how great Glenn is on that tune.

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Me to as far as the precussion fills but only since the Craig Ferguson performance recently. I guess it took a visual to realize how great Glenn is on that tune.

 

I just saw that. I noticed that Nels' Jazzmaster and Jeff's SG were on stage. Do bands play extra songs on his show that don't get aired? Or does Craig Ferguson give bands more than one song?

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I just saw that. I noticed that Nels' Jazzmaster and Jeff's SG were on stage. Do bands play extra songs on his show that don't get aired? Or does Craig Ferguson give bands more than one song?

 

One Wing was filmed at the same taping as Deeper Down, and the songs aired on two separate CF shows.

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One Wing was filmed at the same taping as Deeper Down, and the songs aired on two separate CF shows.

 

Interesting. How much time passed between their appearances? Was it back to back nights?

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I've only seen it once live, and I loved it.

To me it feels almost more orchestral than a lot of other Wilco songs. Sort of like an "art" song- classical music buffs will know what I mean by the term.

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I liked it better the first time I heard it, when it was called Black Eye and it was by Uncle Tupelo.

 

Even seeing Nels switch instruments midsong can't get me to pay attention to it live. I always zone out as soon as I recognize that's what it is.

 

I like the version on the album, and I think it works well in that context, but having seen the video from Craig Ferguson I can see why so many people don't care for the song.

 

Cool drumming aside, there isn't much there.

 

It doesn't help that I'm not all that into Nels on lapsteel. For my tastes Wilco overuses him in that role.

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I've only seen it once live, and I loved it.

To me it feels almost more orchestral than a lot of other Wilco songs. Sort of like an "art" song- classical music buffs will know what I mean by the term.

I feel Deeper Down would fit in if Wilco had done a White Album style record. It just doesn't jibe with what surrounds it and helps bring the album down. When they played it in Durham it received a courtesy applause because the crowd just didn't get into it at all.

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I feel Deeper Down would fit in if Wilco had done a White Album style record. It just doesn't jibe with what surrounds it and helps bring the album down. When they played it in Durham it received a courtesy applause because the crowd just didn't get into it at all.

By that reasoning, Bull Black Nova and Wilco (The Song) does not belong on Wilco (The Album). As for the crowd, I hope they understand that Wilco is not the Eagles.

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By that reasoning, Bull Black Nova and Wilco (The Song) does not belong on Wilco (The Album). As for the crowd, I hope they understand that Wilco is not the Eagles.

You're right. Nova deserves to be on a much better album and The Song shouldn't be on any album.

 

As far as you're thoughts on the crowd's response: Yeah, whatever you say, friend.

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Some stray thoughts, forgive me if I'm retreading any ground:

 

1. Agree that Deeper Down is a top 3 album track, but it didn't land live either night I saw them this past tour.

 

2. W(TS) is an excellent song, but I wish it wasn't W(TS). I wish it was some other song, that lyrically had nothing to do with being self-referential.

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W(TS) is an excellent song, but I wish it wasn't W(TS). I wish it was some other song, that lyrically had nothing to do with being self-referential.

 

I don't know, the theme has always worked pretty well for me. The moment I hear the opening riff, I remember why I love Wilco so much. Then at the end of the verse, Wilco loves me too. Pretty symbiotic. If you line it up against Wilco's other fun rock songs, the lyrics aren't much different; why does is the self-referential part bothersome?

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I don't know, the theme has always worked pretty well for me. The moment I hear the opening riff, I remember why I love Wilco so much. Then at the end of the verse, Wilco loves me too. Pretty symbiotic. If you line it up against Wilco's other fun rock songs, the lyrics aren't much different; why does is the self-referential part bothersome?

 

I really can't verbalize it -- I think it's just not what I want in a musician/band. It's Wilco being cognizant of their own brand, so to speak. I don't mean to say what they've done in the past is contrived, as brand's definitively are... but I guess it makes it seem that way. We get that you "love us"...we get that these are the reasons why we listen to Wilco. They've already proved that by doing what they do.

 

But I guess W(TS) comes off as an advertisement for their own band. Which I know is sort of the idea, and it's supposed to be tongue in cheek. I dunno, this probably makes no sense. Just doesn't work for me :hmm

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I get that, but bands push their own brand the moment they copy their first flier. Wilco has had a mailing list, t-shirts, mugs, tote bags, posters, caps - just about everything - for years. Radio play and concerts push the brand - television appearances and soundtrack deals push the brand. This self-referential form of branding wasn't even released as a single, and received pretty minimal airplay if it received any at all. It breaks a wall between the listener and the music, but it also drives home the point about why we listen to music in the first place. It's no different than any other song about putting on a record to feel better (in fact, it's a lot like The Lonely 1), except this song notes that you're putting on a Wilco record. And you are. So it's also true, in addition to being catchy.

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I get that, but bands push their own brand the moment they copy their first flier. Wilco has had a mailing list, t-shirts, mugs, tote bags, posters, caps - just about everything - for years. Radio play and concerts push the brand - television appearances and soundtrack deals push the brand. This self-referential form of branding wasn't even released as a single, and received pretty minimal airplay if it received any at all. It breaks a wall between the listener and the music, but it also drives home the point about why we listen to music in the first place. It's no different than any other song about putting on a record to feel better (in fact, it's a lot like The Lonely 1), except this song notes that you're putting on a Wilco record. And you are. So it's also true, in addition to being catchy.

 

Yeah, but why do we need that point driven home? Isn't it evident? I mean, it's the same reason I can't stand Dan Brown...I don't need you describe what just happened after every action sequence.

 

Using your example, I think the Lonely 1 is a brilliant approach to conveying a similar message to that of W(TS). One of the major tenets of creative writing/art in general is "show, don't tell". So instead of saying "If you feel this and this, then Wilco is the band for you!", I'd much rather hear the story of someone who depends or relies on certain music, and then draw my own conclusions. That, to be sure, is one of the greatest things about music/art, and something Tweedy has been on record as saying. I believe "What Light" sort of touches on that idea of a song/art being what the viewer/listener makes of it.

 

And I don't disparage Wilco or any band for marketing itself, because thinking otherwise would just be naive. But I think posting flyers and writing self-aggrandizing songs are apples and oranges. When the line between the art and the marketing of that art is blurred, I think something's lost.

 

But anyway, I appreciate your analysis of the tune...it doesn't validate the song for me, but it's certainly a different stance that I hadn't considered. I'm a bit oversensitive to this, I admit -- I didn't even like "Glass Onion" for the self referential bits.

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When the line between the art and the marketing of that art is blurred, I think something's lost.

 

I disagree with this premise, that the song is marketing. And I think you and I also disagree on whether the song is self-aggrandizing. When you say, "I love you" to your wife/husband/partner/dog/cat/child before you leave for work, that's not self-aggrandizing, is it? Marketing your "brand" as father/mother/husband/wife/partner/owner? Saying, "Wilco will love you" is, well, as it says in the song, a fact. If the song said, "Buy more...buy more...buy more of Wilco's records," "Wilco...Wilco...Wilco makes your life better," "Wilco...Wilco...Wilco gets out the tough stains," then that would be a bit more self-aggrandizing, and definitely more direct marketing. What I hear in the song is, "we are as grateful for you as you are for us," which is certainly more than I've ever gotten out of a t-shirt.

 

Further, I think the perspective from which the song is written is equally as genuine as The Lonely 1. Jeff has been writing songs since, what, 198X?, and has had an audience for just as long. Why not write about his experience as the musician? On topic (whew! I knew I'd get there), one of the reasons I don't like Deeper Down is that I don't think Jeff is as skillful writing from the third-person as he is from first-person/his own perspective, and W(TS) is definitely a song from his own perspective, no different than I'm The Man Who Loves You.

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I don't think it's marketing, but I feel the same way as PageTheSage - the self-reference is a turn-off. It's funny though, I don't mind that They Might Be Giants have a song (one I really like) about themselves, and I wouldn't mind if say, The White Stripes had a song called We're The White Stripes. And Prince's My Name Is Prince is fun, too. But Wilco hits me in a way that pretty much no other bands do. So the song irks me. Actually if the Beatles had a song called The Beatles (the Song), it'd probably bug me.

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I disagree with this premise, that the song is marketing. And I think you and I also disagree on whether the song is self-aggrandizing. When you say, "I love you" to your wife/husband/partner/dog/cat/child before you leave for work, that's not self-aggrandizing, is it? Marketing your "brand" as father/mother/husband/wife/partner/owner? Saying, "Wilco will love you" is, well, as it says in the song, a fact. If the song said, "Buy more...buy more...buy more of Wilco's records," "Wilco...Wilco...Wilco makes your life better," "Wilco...Wilco...Wilco gets out the tough stains," then that would be a bit more self-aggrandizing, and definitely more direct marketing. What I hear in the song is, "we are as grateful for you as you are for us," which is certainly more than I've ever gotten out of a t-shirt.

 

Further, I think the perspective from which the song is written is equally as genuine as The Lonely 1. Jeff has been writing songs since, what, 198X?, and has had an audience for just as long. Why not write about his experience as the musician? On topic (whew! I knew I'd get there), one of the reasons I don't like Deeper Down is that I don't think Jeff is as skillful writing from the third-person as he is from first-person/his own perspective, and W(TS) is definitely a song from his own perspective, no different than I'm The Man Who Loves You.

 

I think you're taking my metaphor a little to seriously, re: branding and sort of thing. But still, I do consider the song to be self-aggrandizing, but playfully so. When I read the lyrics, I read "We are here to provide you the service of love and consolation". Based on lyrics alone, the song doesn't speak to fans, the song speaks to the general public...like, "If you experience or relate to any of the following, then Wilco will love you:" Perhaps the 'fan' part of it is implicit. Regardless, I think the song was written with tongue firmly in cheek...like, "If there was an advertisement for Wilco's music, how would it read?" I should emphasize that I don't think they're literally advertising, or marketing, via this song. I don't think they had a boardroom meeting and concluded that a song about the band would be the perfect marketing channel.

 

I agree w/you about Tweedy's strength lying in writing about in the 1st person. Even if it's not about himself, he's just more believable when he assumes the perspective of the song's protagonist. I think most of YHF isn't autobiographical, yet he wisely writes in the first person because it plays to his strengths as a songwriter.

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When I read the lyrics, I read "We are here to provide you the service of love and consolation". Based on lyrics alone, the song doesn't speak to fans, the song speaks to the general public...like, "If you experience or relate to any of the following, then Wilco will love you:" Perhaps the 'fan' part of it is implicit.

 

Well, why do you listen to music? What kind of service do you think any musician aims to provide to its audience, if not love and/or consolation?

 

And yes, if you changed any of the I/my/we lyrics in YHF, the album would have a much smaller impact on me, at least. "He is trying to break your heart"? "She's got reservations about so many things, but not about him"?

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Napalm, you're really getting on this dude who's making some very clear and thoughtful (and totally valid) posts about how he/she views the song. It's sorta weird. Is it 90 degrees where you are too? Cuz me, I'm effin dying.

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Well, why do you listen to music? What kind of service do you think any musician aims to provide to its audience, if not love and/or consolation?

 

Of course that's the kind of latent service they provide. But I don't need a friggin' song directly reminding me! Just like I don't need screenwriters injecting dialog like "Man, I sure hope our audience remembers that this movie is meant to simultaneously provide an escape and entertain!"

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