2012 President?

[Guest Speed Racer]

That's a good point. The GOP is never quiet. They were bat-shit insane with all thier asinine, flat-out obvious lies during that campaign.

 

I should have said Democrats aren't as vocal in their support of incumbents. NO WAY will Obama get the support this time taht he had last time, but he's still almost guaranteed to win.

 

I think both sides had some good flat-out, obvious lies, and always do. What I notice on my own end is that I don't notice the "noise" of the Democrats if I'm supporting the Democratic candidate, but the GOP sticks out because they bug me so much. Kind of like I don't notice when any number of songs are on the radio but when a U2 or DMB song comes on I search for something to stick through my eyeballs to distract from the pain.

[jff]

I think both sides had some good flat-out, obvious lies, and always do. What I notice on my own end is that I don't notice the "noise" of the Democrats if I'm supporting the Democratic candidate, but the GOP sticks out because they bug me so much. Kind of like I don't notice when any number of songs are on the radio but when a U2 or DMB song comes on I search for something to stick through my eyeballs to distract from the pain.

 

Me too.

 

All politicians lie, but I don't know of anything the Dems campaigned on in any recent election that was anywhere close to as disgusting as the swift boat attacks.

[LouieB]

Me too.

 

All politicians lie, but I don't know of anything the Dems campaigned on in any recent election that was anywhere close to as disgusting as the swift boat attacks.

For sure....That was a new low.

 

LouieB

[Doug C]

For sure....That was a new low.

 

LouieB

At least as vile was the disgusting Saxby Chambliss and his surreal, but successful, portrayal of Max Cleland. I still get angry thinking about it. Alas, it really points to how stupid the electorate is, though.

[ih8music]

At least as vile was the disgusting Saxby Chambliss and his surreal, but successful, portrayal of Max Cleland. I still get angry thinking about it. Alas, it really points to how stupid the electorate is, though.

 

No, that was significantly worse IMO.

[West]

It amuses me that there are people who would seek to pair Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich.

 

If you really think Paul and Kucinich are politically compatible, maybe it's time for you to do some reading and puncture some of the mythology that's built up in your brain around those two men. They certainly agree on a select few issues, but they're diametrically opposed on most of the others.

 

I have no doubt that Ron Paul is a principled man who only wants the best for his country. That said, I also think that his economic philosophy is preposterous and would only further cripple the national economy. I also disagree with him on a few very important social and civil liberties issues, though in that arena we see eye-to-eye a lot more than on economic policy. Also, he named his son "Rand." And Rand is a fucking lunatic.

 

Kucinich, on the other hand, is right up my alley ... except that he's a bit of a freak and would never win a national election.

 

 

As for Wilco, they will support Obama again, I'm sure, though they may choose to be less visible in doing so. Personally I have found Obama's presidency to be disappointing, but hardly "failed." However, I was never under the illusion that Obama was a leftist ... he's been a centrist his whole career, and lefties who feel let down by Obama's refusal to push their agenda simply weren't paying attention to his positions. It's hilarious that the Tea Partiers call him "radical" and a "socialist," because he's about as centrist as a politician can get.

 

If nothing else, Obama's presence in the White House has emboldened the GOP to show their true colors on a wide range of issues, and I think the electorate is starting to see them for what they are. 2010 may have been a repudiation of Obama's first two years, but I think 2012 could turn out to be a firm rejection of the Republican vision for America. It certainly should be, anyway.

 

I have little doubt that I will hold my nose and vote for Obama again in 2012, if only to prevent the election of another Republican.

 

I wonder, you're against Ron Paul's views on economy; so are you for spending money we don't have and allowing the Federal Reserve to print money(further devaluing our money? I just want to understand how you think.

[Guest Speed Racer]

You know there's about 90,000 miles of space between this:

 

I wonder, you're against Ron Paul's views on economy;

 

and this:

 

are you for spending money we don't have and allowing the Federal Reserve to print money(further devaluing our money?

 

Right?

[LouieB]

wow, I can't imagine how ugly this will get in the next 19 months.

 

LouieB

"I wanta grow up to be a politician...."

[Moss]

I wonder, you're against Ron Paul's views on economy; so are you for spending money we don't have and allowing the Federal Reserve to print money(further devaluing our money? I just want to understand how you think.

 

 

Yeah, that's kind of a big Calaveras county frog leap of a statement.

[Sparky speaks]

West is actually spot on. The Federal Reserve prints money out of thin air, which is backed by nothing but the word of the government that it is of any value (fiat currency), which our government keeps borrowing and spending to the tune of 14 1/2 trillion dollars beyond our means to pay, which devalues our currency, which will eventually bring on hyperinflation of which we are already seeing evidence of. The Federal Reserve is no more federal than Federal Express. It is a cartel of private banks who are concerned with their own profit at the expense of the rest of us. It was created by Congress but does not have to answer to it for it's actions. It's actually quite simple. Economics 101...

 

Give the Creature From Jekyll Island a read someday. It's a great book. Read Ron Paul's End The Fed.

 

If you've got the time, give this a listen...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAoDUZ1cW6I

[Guest Speed Racer]

West is actually spot on.

 

You mean, you know what Cryp thinks should happen with the economy?

[Sparky speaks]

The Keynesian experiment is over, Nap. There are no options left but print more phony money until the Ponzi scheme comes to a crashing end in the next year or two. This is why this is going to happen to the economy...

 

$14,294,000,000,000.00

 

My link

 

I could give you a million dollars a day since the time of Christ, and you still would not have ONE TRILLION dollars. We are 14.2 trillion in the hole and that number is rising every second. The system is a the point of catastrophic failure. Hope you purchased some silver the past few months...

[Guest Speed Racer]

Oh, so West was right that it's Ron Paul's way or the apocalypse? No gray area whatsoever? Just binary one solution/ absolute failure?

[u2roolz]

The Keynesian experiment is over, Nap. There are no options left but print more phony money until the Ponzi scheme comes to a crashing end in the next year or two. This is why this is going to happen to the economy...

 

$14,294,000,000,000.00

 

Sparky, you're not thinking outside the box. Here's what you do: gather up Stallone and his Expendables and kidnap every professional athlete and rob them blind. Or at least drive them to an ATM. Then leave them stranded somewhere. I think that's a decent start, don't you?

 

P.S. I think they shouldn't even bother with NHL players. Do they even make over a million?

[Sparky speaks]

Sparky, you're not thinking outside the box. Here's what you do: gather up Stallone and his Expendables and kidnap every professional athlete and rob them blind. Or at least drive them to an ATM. Then leave them stranded somewhere. I think that's a decent start, don't you?

 

P.S. I think they shouldn't even bother with NHL players. Do they even make over a million?

 

That might put a tiny dent in it.

 

Here's what a trillion dollars looks like. We owe 14.2...

 

My link

[Sparky speaks]

Oh, so West was right that it's Ron Paul's way or the apocalypse? No gray area whatsoever? Just binary one solution/ absolute failure?

 

Now, you got it...Oh, they'll come up with a new Bretton Woods II or something that will just disguise the old system with something which is essentially the same but with no democratic input from the people. It's already in the works. The same folks who have brought on the collapse are the ones who are putting the solutions together for the new system that they will run. Ending the Federal Reserve and placing our currency back on a precious metals footing is the first step. I truly believe that is the course our nation needs to take. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[LouieB]

Wow, scary. I think we should give more tax breaks to rich people, yea, that will do it.

 

LouieB

[ikol]

I predict I will not care about Wilco's Presidential endorsement.

[Guest Jules]

Wow, scary. I think we should give more tax breaks to rich people, yea, that will do it.

 

LouieB

Probably won't do it, but it'd be a start.

[West]

Now, you got it...Oh, they'll come up with a new Bretton Woods II or something that will just disguise the old system with something which is essentially the same but with no democratic input from the people. It's already in the works. The same folks who have brought on the collapse are the ones who are putting the solutions together for the new system that they will run. Ending the Federal Reserve and placing our currency back on a precious metals footing is the first step. I truly believe that is the course our nation needs to take. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

Whew, I thought I was going to get ganged up on this issue. I find it funny that they aren't really backing up anything with their negative approval of Ron Paul's economic stance. If only Wilco will see the light as well!

 

Edit:

 

jff, you stated that all politicians lie... well in that case it is impossible for Ron Paul to be a politician or your statement is false.

 

Laminated Nap

Oh, so West was right that it's Ron Paul's way or the apocalypse? No gray area whatsoever? Just binary one solution/ absolute failure?

 

Ron Paul wasn't put on the chair of the House Sub-Committe on Domestic Monetary Policy for nothing. He has a deep understanding of economics and our problems related to economics. Have you read any of his work or understand the reasons behind it?

http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/fiat-money-inflation-federal-reserve-2/

 

 

With all respect to Wilco and members of this board, feel free to believe and support who you want, but Ron Paul is one of the few principled politicians in the United States of America if not the entire world; a true upholder of the constitution of the United States. Any arguments against any of his issues should be addressed in a logical way as he has put forth logical reasons for his stance(If I am wrong about my support in Ron Paul I need to know why!).

[KevinG]

Probably won't do it, but it'd be a start.

 

When the Bush tax cuts were enacted in 2001 this was the projection by the Heritage Foundation:

 

• Under President Bush's plan, an average family of four's inflation-adjusted disposable income would increase by $4,544 in fiscal year (FY) 2011, and the national debt would effectively be paid off by FY 2010.
• The net tax revenue reduction, after accounting for the larger tax base that would result from higher employment and faster economic growth under the Bush plan, is $1.1 trillion from FY 2002 to FY 2011, 33.4 percent less than conventional static estimates.
• The plan would save the entire Social Security surplus and increase personal savings while the federal government accumulated $1.8 trillion in uncommitted funds from FY 2008 to FY 2011, revenue that could be used to reform the Social Security and Medicare systems and reduce the payroll tax.

Economic Impact of President Bush's tax cuts - Heritage Foundation March 2001

 

Since the Bush tax cuts worked out so well I think we should cut taxes more.

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

Wait till Gabbo gets here. He'll tell us what to do.

[Sparky speaks]

West, you are new here. Until you started this thread, I've pretty much been on my own on most of these issues so don't get discouraged. Also, I don't give a rat's ass who any of the members of Wilco support for president, what their individual religions are, or what their favorite colors and flavors of ice cream are. They just make the best damn music going. I usually just come here for info on the band but sometimes I get suckered into these debates (my own fault) and succeed in convincing no one to my point of view while getting hammered by the VC gatekeepers. But I've got a few minutes before the Red Sox game goes on so I figured I'd kill a few minutes. Have fun, brother...

 

19 Reasons Why The Federal Reserve Is At The Heart Of Our Economic Problems

 

#1 The Federal Reserve system is a debt-based financial system.

 

The way our system is designed, normally no money comes into existence without more debt being created.

 

But this creates a huge problem, because when a new dollar is created, the interest owed to the banking system on that dollar is not also created at the same time.

 

Therefore, the amount money that is created is not equal to the larger amount of debt that is also created.

 

This is a Ponzi scheme that is designed to drain wealth from the American people and transfer it to the banking system.

 

Today, the amount of debt in our economic system is far, far, far greater than the total amount of money.

 

The only way to keep the game going is to create even more money which creates even more debt.

 

#2 The Federal Reserve and the bankers have a monopoly on the creation of this debt-based money.

 

In the United States today, the only people that can create money are the bankers.

 

You cannot create money.

 

You would go to jail if you tried.

 

Even the U.S. government cannot create money.

 

Although the U.S. Constitution specifically gives Congress the power to create money, the U.S. Congress has given that power to the Federal Reserve and to the banking system.

 

This gives them an enormous amount of power.

 

So how does money creation actually work?

 

Most Americans don't understand this.

 

Read the rest:

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/19-reasons-why-the-federal-reserve-is-at-the-heart-of-our-economic-problems

[West]

West, you are new here. Until you started this thread, I've pretty much been on my own on most of these issues so don't get discouraged. Also, I don't give a rat's ass who any of the members of Wilco support for president, what their individual religions are, or what their favorite colors and flavors of ice cream are. They just make the best damn music going. I usually just come here for info on the band but sometimes I get suckered into these debates (my own fault) and succeed in convincing no one to my point of view while getting hammered by the VC gatekeepers. But I've got a few minutes before the Red Sox game goes on so I figured I'd kill a few minutes. Have fun, brother...

 

19 Reasons Why The Federal Reserve Is At The Heart Of Our Economic Problems

 

#1 The Federal Reserve system is a debt-based financial system.

 

The way our system is designed, normally no money comes into existence without more debt being created.

 

But this creates a huge problem, because when a new dollar is created, the interest owed to the banking system on that dollar is not also created at the same time.

 

Therefore, the amount money that is created is not equal to the larger amount of debt that is also created.

 

This is a Ponzi scheme that is designed to drain wealth from the American people and transfer it to the banking system.

 

Today, the amount of debt in our economic system is far, far, far greater than the total amount of money.

 

The only way to keep the game going is to create even more money which creates even more debt.

 

#2 The Federal Reserve and the bankers have a monopoly on the creation of this debt-based money.

 

In the United States today, the only people that can create money are the bankers.

 

You cannot create money.

 

You would go to jail if you tried.

 

Even the U.S. government cannot create money.

 

Although the U.S. Constitution specifically gives Congress the power to create money, the U.S. Congress has given that power to the Federal Reserve and to the banking system.

 

This gives them an enormous amount of power.

 

So how does money creation actually work?

 

Most Americans don't understand this.

 

Read the rest:

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/19-reasons-why-the-federal-reserve-is-at-the-heart-of-our-economic-problems

 

Yeah, at least we can all love Wilco together. It's kind of lonely in the real world when you can't find any Wilco fans.

[cryptique]

I wonder, you're against Ron Paul's views on economy; so are you for spending money we don't have and allowing the Federal Reserve to print money(further devaluing our money? I just want to understand how you think.

I'm for raising taxes drastically on the wealthy, closing loopholes on corporations (for example, those who incorporate in the Caymans to avoid U.S. taxes, and so on), raising a shit-ton more revenue, amending the Constitution to eliminate "corporate personhood" and guarantee Constitutional rights only to human beings (not corporations), and (among other things) repairing the nation's infrastructure, which is crumbling at an alarming rate, which would actually create hundreds of thousands of jobs, if not millions, not to mention the positive ripple effects it would have across the rest of the economy.

 

Essentially, a New New Deal. Let's bring back the Works Progress Administration. Let's give more than a spit-shine to this country -- update its infrastructure from mid-20th century to 21st century with room to grow into the 22nd. Let's re-regulate some industries that obviously can't behave themselves. Fuck the "unfettered free market" -- that's the naïve fantasy that landed us in this mess in the first place.

 

More than anything, let's narrow income disparity. Yes, that means wealth distribution, but instead of from the bottom up (which has been what's happening for decades, but especially since the Reagan administration), this time from the top down.

 

Does that smack of socialism? You fuckin' betcha. It also happens to be what this country needs.