General Political Thread

[Mr. Heartbreak]

You might not consider yourself wealthy, but maybe you should.  You sound like you are in a yachting club when you gripe about how social programs are stealing your money and giving it away to poor people.  It sounds callous, and out of touch.

Beautifully said.

 

We had a conversation about this a while back, possibly in this very thread. Orange County, California is an example of an area where median household income is between 80-160K in many areas. The OC is notoriously exclusive in parts, as anyone who has ever seen the show about it can attest.

 

New York City is another example. While Manhattan is economically diverse, the Upper East Side has a per capita income of 90K. Of course, it's Manhattan. You're going to pay to live there and you better have a high income.

 

You can get more bang for your buck in other areas, where people pay less for things and make less. But the stark fact is that most Americans could not even afford to move to Laguna Beach, CA or New York, NY. Meanwhile, there are still over 40-million fellow Americans who have no health care coverage at all, and the Federal poverty level guideline is an annual income of 23K for a family of four (wrap your head around that one), and yes, in 2011, there were 46-million fellow Americans living below this poverty threshold. So, yes, "callous and out of touch" would be a very understated and polite way of making your point.

 

I guess when the number is as big as 40-million, it's literally impossible to comprehend, and therefore just seems kind of irrelevant or unimportant.

[Guest Jules]

[quote name=IRememberDBoon" post="1523810" time="1365874901] yeah 100K is DIRT POOR! I can barely sleep at night thinking of all the folks getting by on 100K. My God the horror their day to day must be. Emptiness with no end in site. your brain is a pile of puked up spam if you think this way.          

It's not poor either. Didn't say that. 

[Sir Stewart]

100K would be kinda wealthy for a single person. For a family man, it's certainly not.

[Winston Legthigh]

If a family man making $100k isn't able to stash away some of that into savings (whether short-term, long-term, for emergency funds, or whatever), then he's doing something wrong.

 

Will he be able to join the country club? Maybe not. But life should be pretty comfortable for that family. Are they upper-class? no. 

 

What's the definition of wealthy, anyway?

[Guest Jules]

Who cares anyway.  It's subjective and relative to where the person is living (as has been said here).  Also depends on that person's personal feelings.  The dictionary lists synonyms as "affluent", "well-to-do", "opulent".  I'd say these terms wouldn't be accurate unless you're making at least 500K, or maybe even 1M.  But what the fuck do I know?

[Hixter]

I'm visiting my kids and grandson in Orange County. At the moment, I'm sitting in my daughter's 2-bedroom apartment that costs them just shy of $30,000 per year to rent. Add in a couple of car payments, student loan payments, medical costs and the typical monthly bills and you can see that $100k doesn't go very far here.

 

The tax burden is especially high in California -- my daughter mailed a $1200 check to the state tax board this morning. I'm glad that Texas doesn't have a state income tax.

 

[Mr. Heartbreak]

A beautiful place, though, no? As I said above, most Americans cannot afford to even move to a place like the O.C.

[bleedorange]

A beautiful place, though, no? As I said above, most Americans cannot afford to even move to a place like the O.C.

 

The weather's really nice, but I'm not sure I would call it beautiful.

[lost highway]

I'm visiting my kids and grandson in Orange County. At the moment, I'm sitting in my daughter's 2-bedroom apartment that costs them just shy of $30,000 per year to rent. Add in a couple of car payments, student loan payments, medical costs and the typical monthly bills and you can see that $100k doesn't go very far here. The tax burden is especially high in California -- my daughter mailed a $1200 check to the state tax board this morning. I'm glad that Texas doesn't have a state income tax.

 

And if she were laid off the government would help provide food for her family.  That's the safety net.  That's the communal obligation.

 

As for Texas I understand the businesses bare the brunt of your fiscal needs.

[LouieB]

 

 

I'm not wealthy. I don't think I'm saving enough to retire comfortably. I joined the Army to pay for my wife's medical bills. I raised 2 kids from the age of 18 months through adulthood as a single parent and my ex-wife contributed exactly zero dollars during that time. I racked up big student loans and paid them off as was required. I received food stamps (unexpectedly) and removed myself from the program. 

Life is interesting, as are people's interpretations of why we do things.  The more we get to know one another the more human it all becomes.  Here Hixter indicates he joined the army NOT to defend his country or do his civic duty, but in order to be part of the social safety net that is government employment that includes free healthcare (and I assume he is getting a public pension as well.).  That's cool with me because I did the same.  But I don't think any one can criticize others for accessing the same social safety net of social security, unemployment, medicare or Medicaid, welfare, Obamacare, etc etc if they need it.  So even Hixter isn't the clean and simple do it yourselfer he claims to be.  He made a perfectly good choice in order to support his kids.  It is the same set of choices all folks should be able to have in whatever circumstance they find themselves, be it with dependents, being unemployed, being sick, being poor, etc.  We all need help and we should all be able to expect help if we want it.

 

(Oh yea, student loans...also part of the government safety net.....)

 

LouieB

[lamradio]

I'm all about government help to those who need it.  That is what it is there for.  However, I am not all about the abuse of government help, which runs rampant in this country.  

[Hixter]

Here Hixter indicates he joined the army NOT to defend his country or do his civic duty, but in order to be part of the social safety net that is government employment that includes free healthcare (and I assume he is getting a public pension as well.).

.

.

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So even Hixter isn't the clean and simple do it yourselfer he claims to be.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I DID join the Army to defend my country and I DID feel that it was my civic duty. I could easily have taken any job that offered medical insurance. I wanted to serve my country as my father, grandfather and great-grandfather had done before me.

 

And no, I am not receiving any sort of public pension.

 

Why must people try to repaint others with their own brush? I'm not trying to unveil you as a closet Republican conservative, so why try to pick my words apart? Live and let live, right?

[Tweedling]

It seems like when some people give opinions or criticism about our government there are others who like to give direct personal opinions or criticism.

 

I'm all about government help to those who need it.  That is what it is there for.  However, I am not all about the abuse of government help, which runs rampant in this country.  

This is SO true!

[KevinG]

I'm all about government help to those who need it.  That is what it is there for.  However, I am not all about the abuse of government help, which runs rampant in this country.  

 

You wound find any argument on that statement.  But here is the rub, people who don't like government programs because of abuse seem to be in favor of scraping the entire program (or severely gutting) rather then deal with the abuse to make the program better.  It always seems to me people are throwing the baby out with the bath water here.  

 

It is a simple thing to say there is abuse in government programs so we need to cut it, it is a harder thing to say what is the best way to fix it. 

[IRememberDBoon]

noone is for govt abuse and with technology abuse is at an all time low actually but Republicans want to continue to divide and scare.

[Tweedling]

Both parties are guilty of scaring and dividing.

Is it true that abuse is at an all time low?

[KevinG]

Both parties are guilty of scaring and dividing.

Is it true that abuse is at an all time low?

 

Either it is at an all time low like DBoone says, or it is rampant like lamrod says.  One would say someone is right.  

[lost highway]

I think you would need to be a lot more educated on the topic than ANYONE in this thread to make a conclusive, data-backed statement about just how many people are abusing it these days.

 

It is funny to go from talking about how little 100k is to talking about how people are pimping their life on welfare. 

[KevinG]

I think you would need to be a lot more educated on the topic than ANYONE in this thread to make a conclusive, data-backed statement about just how many people are abusing it these days.

 

how is the need to be educated on a topic  stopped anyone from trying to make a conclusive statement on anything?

 

 

 

It is funny to go from talking about how little 100k is to talking about how people are pimping their life on welfare. 

 

apparently those who make 100k are pretty close to needing government assistance, so it seems to be a logical progression

[Guest Jules]

apparently those who make 100k are pretty close to needing government assistance, so it seems to be a logical progression

Not sure what you're trying to say, but I personally know a few people making around 90K who barely get by.

[lost highway]

Not sure what you're trying to say, but I personally know a few people making around 90K who barely get by.

 

I'd like to talk to them about their financial strategies.  Have them give me a call.

[Tweedling]

Oooooh! Lost highway just called lamrod dumb! Fight! Fight!

 

 

 

 

 

I felt left out so I thought I'd make assumptions and put people's statements into my own words.

It wasn't as fun as some others make it seem.

[lost highway]

Is that the person Jules was referring to?

 

Tweedling, you're right that the personal focus detracts from the real interest of the conversation.  I confess I know of no other way to respond to use of personal anecdote.

 

Argument A: Some people make good money and shouldn't complain about contributions to the safety net.

Response B: I know someone who makes X and it's not enough for their growing children and family needs.

 

At this point you can be polite and not say anything, because it would be somewhat personal.  Or you can kind of wonder the choices someone has made with six figures that have given them license to an emotional coup of a political argument through use of an individual anecdote.

 

In short, I apologize for sounding judgmental.  Nonetheless, if you don't want to personalize a conversation about policy, then don't use personal details to make an argument. 

[KevinG]

Not sure what you're trying to say, but I personally know a few people making around 90K who barely get by.

 

Well that is unfortunate and frankly alarming.  But the key words are "get by."  There are plenty of families through no fault of their own don't get by, on much, much less and need government assistance (ie social security, etc.), but they should be their own safety net, right?

[LouieB]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I DID join the Army to defend my country and I DID feel that it was my civic duty. I could easily have taken any job that offered medical insurance. I wanted to serve my country as my father, grandfather and great-grandfather had done before me.

 

And no, I am not receiving any sort of public pension.

 

Why must people try to repaint others with their own brush? I'm not trying to unveil you as a closet Republican conservative, so why try to pick my words apart? Live and let live, right?

Sure enough.  I also went to work for the government to serve my country and do my civic duty as well, (I also worked in the non-public sector to do my civic duty and serve my country and didn't get any benefits that were ongoing) but getting the heath insurance is a good perk.  My point continues to be, we all do what we do and getting the benefits are okay too.

 

LouieB

 

LouieB