General Political Thread

[Atticus]

My natural instinct on the Zimmerman thing is to think this is a total travesty, and actually it would be hard to persuade me otherwise. But you never can factor in how things go over with a jury, and they are the ones who are present every day in the courtroom and also have to negotiate their own understanding of jury instructions. I'll bet one of the chief tipping points was how the jury felt about whether that was Trayvon Martin or Zimmerman on that audio.

 

you seem to exhibit some interest in it.

[Hixter]

perhaps people have an interest in the facts of the case, or the way our laws address the issue of self-defense, or the legal/court system in general, or the effect this case is having/has had on the American mindset.  

Exactly. I worked for a newspaper for several years and facts matter more than anything. My head almost exploded when that Washing Post writer claimed that Zimmerman had called 911 46 times about African-Americans.

[Atticus]

 this whole case is totally Trayvon Martin's fault. 

 

has anyone on this board espoused this position?

[Magnetized]

endlessly fascinating to you.

 

perhaps people have an interest in the facts of the case, or the way our laws address the issue of self-defense, or the legal/court system in general, or the effect this case is having/has had on the American mindset.  

 

Just because it's not what interests you does not mean you have to dump on the people who find it interesting (I'm not saying that you don't have the right to dump on them in here--for the record I think people should be allowed to offer such opinions as long as they're not unnecessarily vulgar or repetitive or directed at ction).  I have not read every post but I don't recall seeing a great interest in guns.  I accept that I could be mistaken.

 

You know, I'm painting with too broad a brush when I say guns, and you're right to correct me. I get similarly frustrated with what appears TO ME to be an obsessive interest in and endless repetition of new horrors about almost any dark, negative thing that is an example of the ugly side of human nature. Guns are right up there, along with hunting, animal cruelty, terrorism, and intractable political debates where people are so entrenched in their own point of view and it's just "talk to the hand." We live in an age when everyone can self-select what they see as the correct version of the news and they firmly believe in the absolute veracity of what THEY read and hear. It's all just so polarized and really does seem like a waste of time and energy. I waste plenty of time as it is--I don't need to get engaged in frustrating circular debates that go nowhere and change nobody's mind.

[Atticus]

 

everyone can self-select what they see as the correct version of the news and they firmly believe in the absolute veracity of what THEY read and hear.  

 

yes.  which is why people with different opinions and sources discussing a topic might actually yield a more rounded experience of an event. 

[Hixter]

I get similarly frustrated with what appears TO ME to be an obsessive interest in and endless repetition of new horrors about almost any dark, negative thing that is an example of the ugly side of human nature. Guns are right up there, along with hunting, animal cruelty, terrorism, and intractable political debates where people are so entrenched in their own point of view and it's just "talk to the hand." 

I wouldn't consider hunting a dark, ugly, negative side of human nature. None of us would be here without it.

 

I'm actually a "the world is a nice place, people are good, life is great, to each his own" type of person, but I don't mind talking about more troubling topics -- especially if they're involved with current events.

[Magnetized]

yes. which is why people with different opinions and sources discussing a topic might actually yield a more rounded experience of an event.

I disagree. I think that if more people sought out contemplative, reflective media outlets (NPR, The Economist, The Atlantic just some examples) rather than polarized sources (Fox, MSNBC) we would be able to have reasonable discussions. But most of what people consume now is junk/fast food with screaming headlines. What are the biggest obsessions right now? Zimmerman, the royal baby, Cory Monteith. Who gives a flying fuck?

[Mr. Heartbreak]

I think Zimmerman's credibility about the whole series of events is seriously in question.

If you read the piece of transcript Good Old Neon posted, the sequence of events makes a few things clear:

 

Now he's just staring at me.

Now he's walking toward me.

Shit, he's running...down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.

[Are you following him?]

Yeah.

[Okay, we don't need you to do that.]

I don't know where this kid is...

 

So we are to believe that TM approached GZ, changed his mind, started walking away, then ran away, then came all the way back and somehow sucker punched him? Stretches credulity, to put it lightly.

Also interesting that GZ himself refers to TM as "a kid." But he was in fear for his life from the beatdown delivered by said kid. Interesting.

[bleedorange]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/23/justice/florida-zimmerman-timeline

 

That looks to be a timeline cobbled together by wire reports back in April of 2012. I guess my question would be...do we know with any degree of certainty that Zimmerman followed or tried to find Martin after hanging up with the 911 dispatcher? Where did the incident take place? Was it near where he said he would wait for police? If he lost sight of Martin, how did the altercation happen? If Martin ran away, did Zimmerman look for him and ultimately find him? Did Martin come back to initiate the confrontation?

 

I'm actually surprised they even attempted to go after a 2nd-degree murder charge. Was that due to political pressure? What was the jury instructed on the lesser charge of manslaughter? Of course, manslaughter was probably out of the question due to the Florida law that allows for deadly force when you're threatened with bodily harm.

 

The reason I have so many questions is that I can't seem to find an honest assessment of the trial and the testimony. The Slate piece someone posted earlier seemed like the closest thing, and it made sense that the jury came back with a verdict of not guilty. "Beyond a reasonable doubt" is a very high burden of proof. From the things I have seen, there was clearly doubt as to who the aggressor was and what happened in the final moments. Isn't that what our justice system is in place to do? Isn't it "better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"?

[Atticus]

IWhat are the biggest obsessions right now? Zimmerman, the royal baby, Cory Monteith. Who gives a flying fuck?

 

well, as a recovered addict and alcoholic I actually give a shit when an addict in the public eye dies from his disease (for a variety of reasons).  I don't have any interest in the royal baby.  As to Zimmerman, I have a peripheral interest because I'm not sure how I feel about various self-defense laws and am interested in some of the pros and cons that are being discussed.

[KevinG]

It is so BORING and such a waste of creative energy. I suppose I can just choose to ignore it completely, but I keep hoping the thread will change course at some point.

 

Agreed, but everyone has the right to say any damn fool thing they want to.  I have been purposely staying out of any gun talk because, I DON"T FUCKING CARE!

 

In other news I wonder if the 38th time is the charm to repeal the Affordable Care Act.  

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/07/17/house-to-vote-yet-again-on-repealing-obamacare/

 

I am glad they find the time to vote on this rather then work on the immigration bill that is sitting there.  Or working on returning the student loan interest rate from the 7% that it is now.  Or a huge number of problems we have.  

 

I used to think TV was the bread and circuses of our day, maybe it something else.  

[Good Old Neon]

"Something I haven’t seen brought up in the Trayvon Martin case: In 2005 Zimmerman is arrested for “resisting officer with violence” and “battery of law enforcement officer.” But he wrote in his application to the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office Citizens Law Enforcement Academy that “the officer assaulted me first”.

Later that year, his fiance accuses him of domestic violence and takes out a restraining order on him. But he responded by taking out his own restraining order to protect himself against her. Finally we have this case, where Zimmerman claims that a kid who is running away suddenly, for no apparent reason, changes his mind and attacks Zimmerman.

The poor guy can’t catch a break! People keep attacking him, and then they (or the liberal media) claim that he attacked them!

In all seriousness, I think it would have been useful for the prosecution to present witnesses (the cop, the fiance) who could testify that Zimmerman was in the habit of assaulting people and then claiming that they assaulted him."

 

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/07/17/the-tragedy-of-trayvon-reader-odds-and-ends/

[Hixter]

Also interesting that GZ himself refers to TM as "a kid." But he was in fear for his life from the beatdown delivered by said kid.

Zimmerman had a broken nose and lacerations from having his head beaten on the sidewalk; other than the bullet hole, Martin didn't have a scratch on him.

 

Zimmerman said that Martin told him that he was going to die and reached for his gun so, yes, he had reason to fear for his life.

[Good Old Neon]

I might react the same way if I knew my adversary was armed - a fact Martin knew at some point prior to or during the altercation. Zimmerman didn't shoot to maim - he shot to kill. The very act of Zimmerman reaching for his gun could have fueled Martin's actions.

 

Zimmerman's history includes an assault on a police officer, domestic violence and possible child molestation. For some reason, I'm not as willing to continually give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

Zimmerman's history includes an assault on a police officer, domestic violence and possible child molestation. For some reason, I'm not as willing to continually give him the benefit of the doubt.

But Hixter is. And at least one other person: 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/17/ted-nugent-george-zimmerm-sue-trayvon-martins-parents_n_3613163.html

[Hixter]

I might react the same way if I knew my adversary was armed - a fact Martin knew at some point prior to or during the altercation.

There is no evidence that Martin was aware of Zimmerman's handgun until he was straddling him while beating his head on the concrete. Zimmerman would have been breaking the law if he had brandished his pistol for no reason and it's highly unlikely that Martin would have attacked him if Zimmerman had had his pistol out.

 

Zimmerman didn't shoot to maim - he shot to kill.

Nobody shoots to maim. Cops and soldiers certainly don't shoot to maim and neither do civilians. They shoot to stop the attacker.

 

Zimmerman's history includes an assault on a police officer, domestic violence and possible child molestation.

And Martin had a history of fighting, illegal drug use, illegal gun possession, possession of burglary tools and possession of stolen items, but none of that pertains to what happened that night.

[Good Old Neon]

But Hixter is. And at least one other person: 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/17/ted-nugent-george-zimmerm-sue-trayvon-martins-parents_n_3613163.html

Racist attention whore.

[JUDE]

Racist attention whore.

 

I'm the racist attention whore, not Hixter.

[uncool2pillow]

There is no evidence that Martin was aware of Zimmerman's handgun until he was straddling him while beating his head on the concrete. Zimmerman would have been breaking the law if he had brandished his pistol for no reason and it's highly unlikely that Martin would have attacked him if Zimmerman had had his pistol out.

 

 

Nobody shoots to maim. Cops and soldiers certainly don't shoot to maim and neither do civilians. They shoot to stop the attacker.

 

 

And Martin had a history of fighting, illegal drug use, illegal gun possession, possession of burglary tools and possession of stolen items, but none of that pertains to what happened that night.

 

In maybe both cases, patterns of behavior. The meeting of these 2 guys was doomed to end in tragedy. Neither completely innocent.

[uncool2pillow]

I'm the racist attention whore, not Hixter.

See now, this is the kind of thing that got me hooked on this place about 5 years ago.

[bjorn_skurj]

Zimmerman is an asshole, or at least a stupid sap, and is the exact kind of person who should NOT be allowed to have a gun, period. That gun, plus his racist and paranoid outlook, gave him the false courage to get out of his truck and start shit with a total stranger. He found Martin guilty of walking while black, and gave him the death penalty for it. I may be made to travel to Florida at some point in my life, but it will be under duress, as it is a state full of seniles and misguided fools which deserves all the scorn decent people can heap upon it.

[Tweedling]

Why are some people calling Zimmerman a racist?

[ih8music]

Because we can read his mind.  Can't you?

[uncool2pillow]

Because they suspect that his targeting of Martin as a suspicious fellow had something to do with the color of his skin.  There is no way to prove or disprove it.  He apparently had called in lots of suspicious white folks as well,  I really think he thought of himself as the Batman.

[Good Old Neon]

Why are some people calling Zimmerman a racist?

http://politicalblindspot.org/george-zimmermans-old-myspace-surfaces-full-of-racist-statements-and-admissions-of-criminal-activity/