General Political Thread

[KevinG]

You're off by a decimal place (it's actually .001%) but that's not the point and it's certainly not the only election tainted by voter fraud. I'm concerned about any and all voter fraud and I don't think it's too much to for voters to show some sort of government ID in order to prove their identity. Hell, I have to show my ID to board a plane, so why not ask for ID when doing something as important as voting? Remember, George W. Bush won Florida -- and thus the presidency -- by 500 votes in 2000. That's an exceedingly small percentage of Florida voters, but the results affected each and every one of us.

 

I have never said any such thing.

 

I was off my a decimal point, but it is the other way .00001%.  So you are willing to enact laws that could potentially disenfranchise thousands (if not 100 of thousands) because of the .00001% (or .001% depending on your math) cases of voter fraud?

 

Yes you have to show ID to board planes etc, but getting on a plane is not a right mentioned in the constitution.  Getting on a plane is private act, voting is a public act.  

 

I was pretty sure you have said that you did not support showing of an ID when you bought a gun through a third party or gun show sale.  So for the record, you are ok with that? 

[Hixter]

I was off my a decimal point, but it is the other way .00001%. 

No, that's incorrect.

 

I was pretty sure you have said that you did not support showing of an ID when you bought a gun through a third party or gun show sale.  So for the record, you are ok with that?

I'm fine with showing IDs and undergoing a background check when I purchase a gun from a gun dealer. It would be ridiculous and a waste of time to show my driver license to my neighbor if I buy a shotgun from him.

[bleedorange]

It is .001%

[ih8music]

In the spirit of bipartisan harmony, I agree with bleedo and hix on the .001% thing

[KevinG]

No, that's incorrect.

 

I'm fine with showing IDs and undergoing a background check when I purchase a gun from a gun dealer. It would be ridiculous and a waste of time to show my driver license to my neighbor if I buy a shotgun from him.

 

Math is hard.

 

But I'll ask the question again you are ok with enacting laws that could disenfranchise thousands for the sake of a minute number of voter fraud.  

[Winston Legthigh]

I don't know if they've had their day in court yet; it was just the first story that popped up in a Google search. I just added the word "convicted" to the Google search and came up with this case in which a woman was sentenced to 5 years for voter fraud.

seems harsh.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

Many, many people in America today are completely unaware of how serious it is to disenfranchise voters by requiring them to get a photo ID to do something they may have been doing for 40, 50, or even 70 years.

 

In some rural areas, it is a major ordeal to have to drive to the DMV. But there are even places in Pennsylvania, for example, where there are old neighborhoods where people - mostly poor and, yes, mostly black - live in row houses and do not have cars. They ride the bus. They take the subway. Some are in their 80s or 90s. They have been voting in every election since before anyone on this board was born. And yes, it is an unreasonable burden to place on them and, dare we say it, race-based politics. This has been well-documented already, particularly during the 2012 election.

 

In a perverse way, I almost hope these voter I.D. laws are implemented everywhere the G.O.P. wants them to be. It just might have the opposite effect of that intended (suppressing minority vote). Instead, perhaps hundreds, or even thousands, of volunteers will go out, give people rides to the DMV, rides to the polls, even cash to pay for their new photo ID (which is no doubt going to cost something), and push the minority vote to nearly 100%.

 

By the way, absentee balloting would be a good fix for these people, but it doesn't translate into conversions. Why? Well, hell, I vote absentee all the time, because I don't want to stand in line, but I'm white. Black people rarely vote absentee, because they don't trust the system to register their vote, and who can blame them, after the poll taxes, Jim Crow, etc. etc.?

[bleedorange]

Math is hard.

 

But I'll ask the question again you are ok with enacting laws that could disenfranchise thousands for the sake of a minute number of voter fraud.  

 

I prefer math questions.

[Radiant Witch Face]

Anthony Weiner.

[bleedorange]

Many, many people in America today are completely unaware of how serious it is to disenfranchise voters by requiring them to get a photo ID to do something they may have been doing for 40, 50, or even 70 years.

 

In some rural areas, it is a major ordeal to have to drive to the DMV. But there are even places in Pennsylvania, for example, where there are old neighborhoods where people - mostly poor and, yes, mostly black - live in row houses and do not have cars. They ride the bus. They take the subway. Some are in their 80s or 90s. They have been voting in every election since before anyone on this board was born. And yes, it is an unreasonable burden to place on them and, dare we say it, race-based politics. This has been well-documented already, particularly during the 2012 election.

 

In a perverse way, I almost hope these voter I.D. laws are implemented everywhere the G.O.P. wants them to be. It just might have the opposite effect of that intended (suppressing minority vote). Instead, perhaps hundreds, or even thousands, of volunteers will go out, give people rides to the DMV, rides to the polls, even cash to pay for their new photo ID (which is no doubt going to cost something), and push the minority vote to nearly 100%.

 

By the way, absentee balloting would be a good fix for these people, but it doesn't translate into conversions. Why? Well, hell, I vote absentee all the time, because I don't want to stand in line, but I'm white. Black people rarely vote absentee, because they don't trust the system to register their vote, and who can blame them, after the poll taxes, Jim Crow, etc. etc.?

 

Good. I wish more people voted.

[bleedorange]

Good. I wish more people voted.

 

Wait a minute. I take that back. I wish only white men voted.

 

Whew. I almost forgot which side I am supposed to be on.

[ih8music]

In a perverse way, I almost hope these voter I.D. laws are implemented everywhere the G.O.P. wants them to be. It just might have the opposite effect of that intended (suppressing minority vote). Instead, perhaps hundreds, or even thousands, of volunteers will go out, give people rides to the DMV, rides to the polls, even cash to pay for their new photo ID (which is no doubt going to cost something), and push the minority vote to nearly 100%.

 

iirc, this happened in Ohio last election.  not 100% of course, but minority turnout was higher than many people feared.

 

While I agree that the motivation behind these voting laws is almost always political -- low turnout typically favors Republican candidates -- it's hard for me to object to everything that's proposed simply because someone with an R next to their name might benefit from it.

[Hixter]

But I'll ask the question again you are ok with enacting laws that could disenfranchise thousands for the sake of a minute number of voter fraud.  

I'm for anything that eliminates voter fraud. I'd have no problem with the state/federal government subsidizing the cost of ID cards for anyone who doesn't already have one.

 

seems harsh.

She was a poll worker and voted illegally several different times. She deserves some jail time.

 

Many, many people in America today are completely unaware of how serious it is to disenfranchise voters by requiring them to get a photo ID

It's hard to understand how the poor, elderly or anyone else can make it through life without ID. Applying for welfare benefits? Need to show ID. Flying? Need to show ID. Enrolling in school? Need to show ID. Interacting with the police? Need to show ID. Opening a bank account? Need to show ID. Cashing a check? Need to show ID. Leaving or entering the country? Need to show ID. Buying alcohol? Need to show ID.

[Atticus]

Jules requires all of his "escorts" to furnish ID.

[KevinG]

iirc, this happened in Ohio last election.  not 100% of course, but minority turnout was higher than many people feared.

 

While I agree that the motivation behind these voting laws is almost always political -- low turnout typically favors Republican candidates -- it's hard for me to object to everything that's proposed simply because someone with an R next to their name might benefit from it.

 

I hope that no one would object because it would benefit a particular party or group of people.  I would hope people would object because something is against what they believe to be right and just.  

 

 

It's hard to understand how the poor, elderly or anyone else can make it through life without ID.

 

It maybe hard to understand, but there are people who do.  

 

You know I might be able to soften the notion of voter ID, but that compounded with removing same day registration, early voting, redistricting, it all just seems too much.  Also in case of North Carolina and Texas it is amazing to me that these laws came so quickly after the supreme court's decision.  

[KevinG]

I don't know if they've had their day in court yet; it was just the first story that popped up in a Google search. I just added the word "convicted" to the Google search and came up with this case in which a woman was sentenced to 5 years for voter fraud.

 

Also as a note, what voter ID law would have stopped this woman form voting.  By the accounts that I have read she abused her power as poll worker to vote twice.  It wasn't like she went to different districts and voted.  

 

The only thing, and I always liked this, is the purple thumb thing they did in Iraq.  Once you vote you dip your thumb in purple ink.  This way you can't vote twice.  

[Hixter]

This way you can't vote twice.  

Now you're discriminating against people without thumbs! 

[KevinG]

Now you're discriminating against people without thumbs! 

 

If you don't have thumbs you probably vote republican so I wouldn't want you to vote anyways.  

[Mr. Heartbreak]

It's hard to understand how the poor, elderly or anyone else can make it through life without ID. Applying for welfare benefits? Need to show ID. Flying? Need to show ID. Enrolling in school? Need to show ID. Interacting with the police? Need to show ID. Opening a bank account? Need to show ID. Cashing a check? Need to show ID. Leaving or entering the country? Need to show ID. Buying alcohol? Need to show ID.

Here's a link to the PA voting info:

 

http://www.votespa.com/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=1174125&mode=2

 

Notice the forms of ID it mentions for people who are not first-time voters in the area:

• Non-photo ID issued by the Commonwealth
• Non-photo ID issued by the U.S. Government
• Firearm permit
• Current utility bill
• Current bank statement
• Current paycheck
• Government check

So now imagine a woman who has been married but never worked outside the home. She's 91. Her late husband didn't have a bank account. Worked for cash. Didn't collect Social Security. She has never had a "non-photo ID issued by the Commonwealth," because she was, let's say, born in a different state. Sorry, but she doesn't own a gun (let's not go there). After her husband died, she moved in with one of her kids. No car, no bank account, no checks, on and on and on. All she has is her birth certificate from New York or New Jersey. 

 

This is not that weird. For us, it seems weird. But for our (admittedly fictional) 91-year-old granny in the example, it's nothing weird at all. She has never had much, but she has had the right to vote since about 1919. Applying for welfare benefits? She never did. Flying? Could never afford it. Enrolling in school? Nope. Interacting with the police? Hoped she didn't. Opening a bank account? Never. Cashing a check? Paid cash or bought a money order from Amscot. Leaving or entering the country? Couldn't afford to. Buying alcohol? She never took a drink.

 

Can you really not see that this is possible? And that it applies to, literally, tens of thousands of Americans, universally poor, and largely minority (and, therefore, more likely to vote Dem)? Use your imagination a little, buddy. If I can imagine a happy (!) guy in Texas who owns 9 guns, surely you can conjure up images of someone like this.

 

By the way, during the 2012 election, there was a very nice story about a woman, here in Florida, I believe, who went through all the rigmarole to get a photo ID. It took about four hours, and she had to just eat that, because she didn't have any vacation time coming to her. She essentially had to PAY for the right to vote last year.

[Hixter]

So now imagine a woman who has been married but never worked outside the home. She's 91. Her late husband didn't have a bank account. Worked for cash. Didn't collect Social Security. She has never had a "non-photo ID issued by the Commonwealth," because she was, let's say, born in a different state. Sorry, but she doesn't own a gun (let's not go there). After her husband died, she moved in with one of her kids. No car, no bank account, no checks, on and on and on. All she has is her birth certificate from New York or New Jersey. 

 

This is not that weird. For us, it seems weird. But for our (admittedly fictional) 91-year-old granny in the example, it's nothing weird at all. She has never had much, but she has had the right to vote since about 1919. Applying for welfare benefits? She never did. Flying? Could never afford it. Enrolling in school? Nope. Interacting with the police? Hoped she didn't. Opening a bank account? Never. Cashing a check? Paid cash or bought a money order from Amscot. Leaving or entering the country? Couldn't afford to. Buying alcohol? She never took a drink.

 

Can you really not see that this is possible?

Anything is possible, but the circumstances you describe are exceedingly rare. So maybe a few thousand people have fallen through the cracks -- is asking them to spend a couple of dollars and a little bit of time too much to ask in order to prevent fraud? I just checked the Texas ID page and found that residents 60 and older can get an ID card that never expires. The cost? A whopping $6.

 

By the way, during the 2012 election, there was a very nice story about a woman, here in Florida, I believe, who went through all the rigmarole to get a photo ID. It took about four hours, and she had to just eat that, because she didn't have any vacation time coming to her. She essentially had to PAY for the right to vote last year.

I pay to vote every year: I burn gas to drive to my polling place. Four hours of her time is peanuts compared to the amount of time she'll spend on the actual voting process over the course of her life.

 

P.S. I only own 6 guns.

[Winston Legthigh]

Also as a note, what voter ID law would have stopped this woman form voting.  

Or any of those examples in the MKEJournal Hixter quoted? I voter ID law wouldn't have fixed any of those issues.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

Anything is possible, but the circumstances you describe are exceedingly rare. So maybe a few thousand people have fallen through the cracks -- is asking them to spend a couple of dollars and a little bit of time too much to ask in order to prevent fraud? I just checked the Texas ID page and found that residents 60 and older can get an ID card that never expires. The cost? A whopping $6.

 

I pay to vote every year: I burn gas to drive to my polling place. Four hours of her time is peanuts compared to the amount of time she'll spend on the actual voting process over the course of her life.

 

P.S. I only own 6 guns.

Well, I was trying to appeal to your imagination and/or empathy, but obviously that didn't work, so we are back to hard numbers again.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/16/pennsylvania-voter-id-law_n_3605658.html

We are not talking about "a few thousand" people. We are talking about hundreds of thousands. Half a million.

Asking people to spend a couple dollars is too much, yes. Did you know that homeless American citizens have a right to vote too? They can have NO FUCKING MONEY and it's still their right to vote.

The lady in FL who lost four hours of work time had A JOB AND A CAR. What about all the people who have neither?

I am losing my faith here, man. Just try for a moment to put yourself in someone else's shoes.

[IRememberDBoon]

Well, I was trying to appeal to your imagination and/or empathy, but obviously that didn't work, so we are back to hard numbers again.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/16/pennsylvania-voter-id-law_n_3605658.html

We are not talking about "a few thousand" people. We are talking about hundreds of thousands. Half a million.

Asking people to spend a couple dollars is too much, yes. Did you know that homeless American citizens have a right to vote too? They can have NO FUCKING MONEY and it's still their right to vote.

The lady in FL who lost four hours of work time had A JOB AND A CAR. What about all the people who have neither?

I am losing my faith here, man. Just try for a moment to put yourself in someone else's shoes.

 

THANK YOU! And Im the loser moron because I want to stay out of this argument? I mean to me there is no middle ground. There is the truth and then there is The Republican Party Platform.

 

[lost highway]

 So maybe a few thousand people have fallen through the cracks --

 

How can you blow off a few thousand people but get militant about .001% fraud?  That's just weird.

 

Are you willing to acknowledge that most of the pushing for voting laws is coming from candidates who think that it will eliminate unwanted competition?  The whole conversation has been so hilariously disingenuous that you'd have to be a rube to think that we've got a serious voter fraud problem that big politicians are doing their darndest to fight.

[Tweedling]

If there are 11 million people living in the US illegally how many of those do you think voted in the last presidential election?

I'm not directing this question to anyone in particular I am just curious to see what everyone thinks.