General Political Thread

[caliber66]

It was $250K because that was the wealthy/non-wealthy threshold in the tax plan.

[Hixter]

It was $250K because that was the wealthy/non-wealthy threshold in the tax plan.

I was remembering this:

 

http://viachicago.org/topic/48597-general-political-thread/?p=1523810

[Guest Don Draper]

I would not want to raise kids on a combined household income of $100,000, but it can certainly be done.  And I say this from the perspective of someone raised in a house with an income of $125,000 in a positively plush lifestyle.  Inflation really creeps up on you I guess.

 

To that end, $250,000 is not what it used to be, but if I had that income I would be choosier about who I complained to about my bills.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

I would not want to raise kids on a combined household income of $100,000, but it can certainly be done.  And I say this from the perspective of someone raised in a house with an income of $125,000 in a positively plush lifestyle.  Inflation really creeps up on you I guess.

 

To that end, $250,000 is not what it used to be, but if I had that income I would be choosier about who I complained to about my bills.

 

Heh...$100,000.

Really? I put one child through college, am putting another through college (without borrowing any money) and there is quite a bit of room between my income and your strained calculaitons.

[Guest Don Draper]

Heh...$100,000.

Really? I put one child through college, am putting another through college (without borrowing any money) and there is quite a bit of room between my income and your strained calculaitons.

I'm in my mid-30s with grad school debt, and will likely marry someone with grad school debt.  I don't want to have children when I'm paying back loans - a lifestyle choice to be sure, but there you go.  I'm not sure I offered any calculations; I said it can be done but I don't want to. I also said that $100,000/$250,000 is not what it used to be, which is also true.

[Atticus]

I'm not what I used to be.

[Guest Don Draper]

I want to say that sometimes but I'm afraid I'll completely scare away my hairline.

[IRememberDBoon]

but hey a teacher made their choices and a CEO made their choices so let the teacher live with being a public servant.
As far as the Governor is concerned...............What is Scott Walkers salary??

[caliber66]

I was remembering this:

 

http://viachicago.org/topic/48597-general-political-thread/?p=1523810

That may be what I was remembering also.

 

Heh...$100,000.

Really? I put one child through college, am putting another through college (without borrowing any money) and there is quite a bit of room between my income and your strained calculaitons.

Are you paying Texas public university in-state tuition?

[Tweedling]

I was remembering this:

 

http://viachicago.org/topic/48597-general-political-thread/?p=1523810

Gotta love that shit.

[LouieB]

Happy Labor Day everyone.

 

LouieB

[Hixter]

As far as the Governor is concerned...............What is Scott Walkers salary??

Google says it's $144k. I'll bet the union bosses make much more than that.

[gogo]

Hmm.  As someone who consistently puts in 50-60 hour weeks, I don't know that I would characterize anyone as working "more than 12 months a year."  I mean, in the spirit of KevinG's assistance that we agree on facts that's a safe one on which we can all agree.

 

I'm not saying this adds up to an extra two months a year, but in a conversation I had this weekend, unrelated to teacher salary/benefits, a friend told me that she is required to do individual assessments of each student in her kindergarten class, once in the fall and again in the spring.  Rather than leave the class unattended (or attempt to give them a project to do "on their own", which she knows from 20+ years of experience doesn't really work like that), she and the other kindergarten teacher at her school each take sick leave on those days, so that a substitute can be brought in and they can complete the assessments.

 

I was shocked when she told me this, but after doing this for so many years, it no longer occurred to her just how crazy that system was, until she saw my reaction to it.

[KevinG]

Google says it's $144k. I'll bet the union bosses make much more than that.

 

yes, but what does that matter?

 

http://www.lakelandtimes.com/main.asp?SectionID=9&SubSectionID=110&ArticleID=15195

[Beltmann]

I was shocked when she told me this, but after doing this for so many years, it no longer occurred to her just how crazy that system was, until she saw my reaction to it.

 

That's commonplace in the profession.  The job requirements are not actually feasible in the "normal" workday, which is why I've averaged 60-70 hours per week over the last thirteen years.  When crunch time comes, it's literally impossible to keep up.  I never take time off for being sick--it's more work arranging for an absence than just going in--but I have taken sick days to stay home and frantically grade papers for twelve hours straight.

 

I knew what I was getting into when I pursued this profession, and I would never argue that teachers work more hours than many other professionals.  I'm no martyr.  But I bristle when I hear that teachers only work 10 months a year, or are underworked.  I've done the math, and I work about as many hours in 10 months as many professionals do in 12, with the added stress of compressing it into a shorter timeframe.  And that's before factoring in all of the curriculum planning, remedial teaching, and class taking that occurs over the summer, which adds considerable hours to teacher labor.  Summers off?  In my experience, that is a mythical creature.  Summer is when I continue to work (at a slower pace, perhaps) despite being temporarily laid off and unpaid.

 

Here is an important truth: The five hours spent every day teaching in front of a classroom are the easiest and least time-consuming aspect of the job.  The real work, the most challenging work, the most time-consuming work, occurs when the students are not around.

[uncool2pillow]

Yep. I am not sure this is adequately taught or learned. Maybe it's only something that experience can teach. Also, Eric, come to Iowa! Not the best state for the teaching profession, but it's improving and I'm sure better than WI. Also, my district, West Des Moines, is offering a helluva retirement deal. Lots of openings.

[KevinG]

It is my opinion that teachers are drastically underpaid.  Teachers should be among the highest paid professionals out there.   The job they do is far important than most jobs out there.  They are more important than any CEO or medical professional.  The competition for a tech job needs to be fierce and we need only the best and brightest to become teachers.  Teachers should be revered and honored at every chance, not vilified as takers.  With that being said schooling for teaching should be hard and rigorous.  Teachers that come out of college need to have the tools to mold the minds of children to be the best they can be.     

[Beltmann]

I agree that teachers are underpaid, and yet, contrary to public opinion, I'm not too concerned about my salary.  I'm a simple guy who likes to live modestly, so my salary is adequate.  I'm much more concerned with my workload, and in fact would gladly accept a pay cut in exchange for a manageable workload. Unfortunately, Act 10 has made it impossible for unions to negotiate any workload issues.  The result in my district and many others is a workload situation that has made it impossible to do any part of the job well.  We are so frantic during the day--in perpetual survival mode--that thousands of things are being done at a mediocre level and none are done at a superior level.  Education in WI is suffering, no matter how many times Scott Walker turns a blind eye and says, "It's working."

 

That's one of the Big Lies about the union protests in WI:  The right-wing media presented it as a case of "greedy union thugs" interested only in protecting their financial interests.  The truth is that the protests were mostly about the right to negotiate working conditions, because awful conditions hurt both teachers and students.

[Guest Don Draper]

I'm not saying this adds up to an extra two months a year, but in a conversation I had this weekend, unrelated to teacher salary/benefits, a friend told me that she is required to do individual assessments of each student in her kindergarten class, once in the fall and again in the spring.  

A friend of mine teaches at a Montessori school and she has to write what seem to amount to novels about each student she teaches.  She's saved 10 of them as templates now so that she doesn't throw herself off a bridge twice a year.  Insane.  Of course she opted into the Montessori school because she loves 90% of the model, but in December and May I want to send her flowers, a masseuse, a cabana boy, and a housekeeper.

[uncool2pillow]

It is my opinion that teachers are drastically underpaid.  Teachers should be among the highest paid professionals out there.   The job they do is far important than most jobs out there.  They are more important than any CEO or medical professional.  The competition for a tech job needs to be fierce and we need only the best and brightest to become teachers.  Teachers should be revered and honored at every chance, not vilified as takers.  With that being said schooling for teaching should be hard and rigorous.  Teachers that come out of college need to have the tools to mold the minds of children to be the best they can be.     

This is all well and good.  But do some math.  There's simply not enough money.  In 2010, there are about 850,000 licensed physicians in the U.S. (source: http://www.nationalahec.org/pdfs/FSMBPhysicianCensus.pdf).  In 2011, about 3.7 million public and private school teachers (source: http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=28).  

 

Let's do some math. The median teacher pay is around $51,500 (source: http://www1.salary.com/Public-School-Teacher-Salary.html, not the most accurate looking Website, but we'll pretend otherwise because I am a teacher and I've got papers to grade after this post).  An average general practitioner, lowest on the list of doctors (source: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/People_with_Jobs_as_Physicians_%2F_Doctors/Salary) is $131,500.

 

So to bring the average teacher salary in line with the average doctor salary would cost taxpayers (and relatively few tuition payers at private schools) would cost nearly $300 billion (I believe I did the math right, I teach social studies).  That's an extra $300 billion every year.  My point is, it's all well and good and I appreciate the accolades thrown our way.  And I agree that great teachers are incredibly valuable to the future success of this country and its citizens.  But it sound like empty platitudes when I hear pay us like doctors, CEOs, professional athletes, etc.  

 

A couple of more things to consider.  

1. As a consumer, I have quite a bit of choice in the doctors I see.  There are some limits, but if I really don't like a doctor, I can find another for most issues.  A doctor's pay is somewhat related to their ability to keep patients.  Teachers, not so much.
2. Salary schedules treat all types of teachers the same.  A math teacher = a social studies teacher = a science teacher, etc.  A teacher with an advanced degree earns more, but all degrees are pretty much equal.  In general, someone with an advanced degree in math or science can make a ton more in the private sector than someone with an advanced degree in the humanities.  My point is, the laws of supply and demand could do a lot to draw in more excellent minds in math, science, engineering, etc.  I would include special education.  The requirements on special education teachers, to not only teach, but monitor student growth is freaking ridiculous.  The demands on these teachers warrant higher pay.

I could probably go on, but I guess my overall point is that if teachers are going to make significantly more money, it's going to cost a boatload of money, and reform should probably come with some changes in the way we determine salary schedules.

[KevinG]

This is all well and good.  But do some math.  There's simply not enough money.  In 2010, there are about 850,000 licensed physicians in the U.S. (source: http://www.nationalahec.org/pdfs/FSMBPhysicianCensus.pdf).  In 2011, about 3.7 million public and private school teachers (source: http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=28).  

 

Let's do some math. The median teacher pay is around $51,500 (source: http://www1.salary.com/Public-School-Teacher-Salary.html, not the most accurate looking Website, but we'll pretend otherwise because I am a teacher and I've got papers to grade after this post).  An average general practitioner, lowest on the list of doctors (source: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/People_with_Jobs_as_Physicians_%2F_Doctors/Salary) is $131,500.

 

So to bring the average teacher salary in line with the average doctor salary would cost taxpayers (and relatively few tuition payers at private schools) would cost nearly $300 billion (I believe I did the math right, I teach social studies).  That's an extra $300 billion every year.  My point is, it's all well and good and I appreciate the accolades thrown our way.  And I agree that great teachers are incredibly valuable to the future success of this country and its citizens.  But it sound like empty platitudes when I hear pay us like doctors, CEOs, professional athletes, etc.  

 

A couple of more things to consider.  

1. As a consumer, I have quite a bit of choice in the doctors I see.  There are some limits, but if I really don't like a doctor, I can find another for most issues.  A doctor's pay is somewhat related to their ability to keep patients.  Teachers, not so much.
2. Salary schedules treat all types of teachers the same.  A math teacher = a social studies teacher = a science teacher, etc.  A teacher with an advanced degree earns more, but all degrees are pretty much equal.  In general, someone with an advanced degree in math or science can make a ton more in the private sector than someone with an advanced degree in the humanities.  My point is, the laws of supply and demand could do a lot to draw in more excellent minds in math, science, engineering, etc.  I would include special education.  The requirements on special education teachers, to not only teach, but monitor student growth is freaking ridiculous.  The demands on these teachers warrant higher pay.

I could probably go on, but I guess my overall point is that if teachers are going to make significantly more money, it's going to cost a boatload of money, and reform should probably come with some changes in the way we determine salary schedules.

 

yes, that is true to pay teachers what they are worth would take a boatload of money.  Can't argue with that.  But there is money out there.  

[uncool2pillow]

So, according to this site, the war on terror has cost about $1.5 trillion over 12 years. http://nationalpriorities.org/cost-of/

 

I believe that's less than $15 billion a year (coffee's just kicking in, so my math may be way off here). Paying teachers like doctors -- not to mention CEOs) would cost 20x that. So, where is this money? Again, I'm all for paying me more. But the public will -- rightly, to my mind -- demand reforms in how we pay teachers before we entertain even modest pay increases.

[KevinG]

So, according to this site, the war on terror has cost about $1.5 trillion over 12 years. http://nationalpriorities.org/cost-of/

 

I believe that's less than $15 billion a year (coffee's just kicking in, so my math may be way off here). Paying teachers like doctors -- not to mention CEOs) would cost 20x that. So, where is this money? Again, I'm all for paying me more. But the public will -- rightly, to my mind -- demand reforms in how we pay teachers before we entertain even modest pay increases.

 

Our priorities in this country are so out of whack.  Yes, it will cost money, but the job they do is so important.  I want the best and brightest to be teachers, it can only make things better.  Of course reforms will be needed.  You know this is just a pipe dream and will never happen, but our school system is a mess.  It is a sad commentary when schools have to close because they don't have air conditioning, or teachers have to spend their own money for school supplies.  We in this country put such a stress on education but yet continue to take away the the tools for education to be great.  

[lost highway]

I have been putting in ten hours most days (some days more), but this is the time of year where it's impossible to feel caught up.  I'm not really sure what financial benefit would seem congruent for working incredibly hard- most people that stick to this job do it because they really want to.  I guess a little better money would be good, but I think most teachers are feeling like the U.S. culture is lacking in respect for us.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

I'm not what I used to be.

There's a lot more of me than there used to be in sense, but there's a lot less of me in another.