Hixter Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 To be honest, my going 10 mph over the speed limit is not justification for the officers being total dicks, screaming at me, calling a public highway "my road," making snide references to my mother as my "mommy," lying about my speed (big difference between 80 and 96), etc. etc.I can understand a cop getting angry if you leave your vehicle and approach him without permission as he walks back to his vehicle, but the rest of it sounds like drill sergeant hot air. Unprofessional, yes, but not a surefire indicator of a sociopath. There's always the opportunity to report improper behavior at a later time. There are numerous reasons that could explain a reading of 96, but if the cop lied about the reading on his radar gun then he doesn't deserve to wear a badge. Probably so. Apologies sir.No sweat. You can't be armed by the weapon you're being shot with.I'd imagine that the law says otherwise. I'm sure every court in the land would rule that a suspect who attempts to grab a cop's gun has intentions of turning it on him. You and I know that "all cops" don't shoot unarmed people.True, but I'm reasonably certain that all cops would rather shoot someone who was trying to take their weapon rather than let that person take it and turn it against them. Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Check out images or videos of the stuff that was going on when they were looking for the Boston marathon bomber. http://libn.com/2013/04/19/manhunt-in-boston-after-bombing-suspect-is-killed/ http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/manhunt-cost-boston-hundreds-millions-dollars-experts-article-1.1322857 You never saw anything even remotely resembling this stuff before 1990. Armored trucks, tanks, assault vehicles, whatever. I don't worry about the equipment cops use as much as I worry about when it is used. Police might not need to use an armored vehicle when serving a warrant to a small-time criminal, but the use of a bomb-resistant armored transport vehicle (they are not tanks) seems like a no-brainer when suspects like the Boston bombers are throwing actual bombs at cops. A riot situation is also a perfect scenario for using armored vehicles. I am deeply pessimistic about our country's increased violence and especially the use of overwhelming force against individuals.Overwhelming force is exactly what is needed when confronting a lethal threat. I just shake my head when I hear people say things like "Why didn't they just shoot him in the leg?" in response to a police shooting. It makes no sense in the real world. Link to post Share on other sites
KevinG Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 No worries. I'm a 50 y.o. Caucasian...not exactly the demographic that has to worry about being profiled by the cops. I should clarify that those incidents I mentioned occurred when I was around 20, 25 and 40 (but still looking 30), respectively. There does seem to be a certain gravitas that occurs with age, and the natural order of things is that now cops are often much younger than me, and more inclined to call me "sir" than to make snide references to my mother. I think that is what we forget as we talk about this. I would gather that nearly everyone on this board (especially those that participate in this forum) are white males, with the average age being around 30-35. I don't think any one of us knows what it is like to be young and black and how the police see you (or society as a whole). I am not saying that because Brown was of a certain race that excuses him for not listening to the orders of the police, but on the same note it is tough to tell if the same situation would have happened if Brown was white. We cannot ignore the racial aspect of this. One thing which is somewhat germane to the conversation (or at least I see it as such) is the increasing militarization of the police force. As lost highway noted, this kind of thing would not happen in other countries. Now, that may be because police do not even carry guns in some of them, and would have to use a taser or night stick instead. But it is extremely troubling to see how much, and what kind of, surplus military equipment is being offloaded to police forces. Check out images or videos of the stuff that was going on when they were looking for the Boston marathon bomber. Some the police officers out there have better equipment then our soldiers do. Maybe this all goes back to guns. We allow the manufacture and sale of deadly weapons, so these weapons end up on the streets (through various means). Therefore the police need bigger and powerful weapons to combat this threat, so then the criminals are able to get these weapons, and it cycles. So you see the huge militarization of the police force. If there was someway to break the cycle. A riot situation is also a perfect scenario for using armored vehicles. In the case of Ferguson, the riot was caused by the action of the police. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Heartbreak Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I would gather that nearly everyone on this board (especially those that participate in this forum) are white males, with the average age being around 30-35. "Whiter than a Wilco concert" Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I don't think any one of us knows what it is like to be young and black and how the police see you (or society as a whole). I know what it's like to be profiled due to having long hair in the 70s and early 80s and I know what it's like to be profiled for being 40 and having a huge biker-worthy beard late at night in an upscale neighborhood. It annoyed me, but I grudgingly acknowledge that if cops are to prevent crime rather than merely respond to it, they have to rely on intuition, experience, training and visual clues -- often within a timespan of mere seconds. Whether we're conscious of it or not, every one of us makes dozens of such calculations every day of our lives. it is tough to tell if the same situation would have happened if Brown was white.Unarmed white men are killed by African-American cops. It's no secret and it should be seen as a mystery or surprise. Some the police officers out there have better equipment then our soldiers do.Offensive gear? Soldiers have automatic weapons; cops have semi-automatic weapons. Soldiers have heavily armed fighter aircraft, bombers and drones at their disposal; cops use unarmed helicopters. Soldiers carry high-explosive grenades and missile launchers; cops fire teargas and water cannons. In the case of Ferguson, the riot was caused by the action of the police.The riot was caused by looters and vandals who were unhappy with a court decision. Link to post Share on other sites
tinnitus photography Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Glad you guys were able to reach a reasoned conclusion that "the system is looking a little broken" after reading all the evidence the grand jury reviewed. Oh wait...some holiday weekend reading, if you want to dig in:http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/11/25/us/evidence-released-in-michael-brown-case.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0 Link to post Share on other sites
tinnitus photography Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 He wasn't shot for stealing cigars, he was shot because he attacked an officer and tried to take his gun. The officer had every reason to fear for his life and the grand jury recognized that the officer was justified in using lethal force to protect himself. You forgot the part about Brown assaulting office Wilson. I'm pretty sure if a gun fondling redneck disobeyed a lawful order and assaulted a police officer to the point the officer felt his life was in imminent danger, he would have had a magazine emptied into him as well. you guys have seen the photos of Wilson, right? yeah, he really got the tar knocked out of him. good ol' Fox News:http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/20/missouri-cop-was-badly-beaten-before-shooting-michael-brown-says-source/ “The Assistant (Police) Chief took him to the hospital, his face all swollen on one side,” said the insider. “He was beaten very severely.” Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Heartbreak Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 some holiday weekend reading, if you want to dig in:http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/11/25/us/evidence-released-in-michael-brown-case.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0I just scanned through several of those eyewitnesses' reports, and three out of the four I looked at corroborated the officer's testimony that Brown was coming toward him when he fired the fatal shots.you guys have seen the photos of Wilson, right? yeah, he really got the tar knocked out of him. Dang, that really is one redneck-lookin' cop. Link to post Share on other sites
tinnitus photography Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Link to post Share on other sites
Atticus Posted November 25, 2014 Author Share Posted November 25, 2014 In the case of Ferguson, the riot was caused by the action of the police. this is the kind of thing that I find really frustrating. There is never a time, place or situation where I'm justified in damaging other people's property or putting innocent people in fear for their safety because of horrible things done to someone else of my race, gender, religion, nationality, sexual orientation or preference for Wilco era. nobody caused anyone in Ferguson to go out into the streets to terrorize business owners and residents. that's just crap. Link to post Share on other sites
KevinG Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I know what it's like to be profiled due to having long hair in the 70s and early 80s and I know what it's like to be profiled for being 40 and having a huge biker-worthy beard late at night in an upscale neighborhood. It annoyed me, but I grudgingly acknowledge that if cops are to prevent crime rather than merely respond to it, they have to rely on intuition, experience, training and visual clues -- often within a timespan of mere seconds. Whether we're conscious of it or not, every one of us makes dozens of such calculations every day of our lives. I would imagine, but it probably is quite a bit different if you are black. Even if you are a long haired hippie biker dude, I think being black is another thing. But of course I am not black, so I can't really tell. So I am not going to speak to it. But to say you know what it is like to be profiled, I am not buying it. Unarmed white men are killed by African-American cops. It's no secret and it should be seen as a mystery or surprise. Yes, but of course but you are comparing apples and oranges. SLC is about 75% white, whereas in Ferguson is 67% black. Police shootings happen all the time. Let me clarify, in Ferguson if Michael Brown was white, would have the cop asked him to move to the side walk? Would Brown have felt threatened and oppressed enough that he had to fight back (or attack as the case may be). There in lies the question. Race is such a tricky thing, we would all like to say we don't see race, everyone is equal, blah, blah, blah. But we know that ain't true. We need to confront and understand race and how our shared history has used race to harm people. We can never not see race, it is unfortunate but true. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Heartbreak Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Race is such a tricky thing, we would all like to say we don't see race, everyone is equal, blah, blah, blah. But we know that ain't true. We need to confront and understand race and how our shared history has used race to harm people. We can never not see race, it is unfortunate but true. Well, this isn't going to help the cause: http://www.aol.com/article/2014/11/25/burn-this-bitch-down-michael-browns-stepfather-shown-encouraging-ferguson-riots/20998980/ Link to post Share on other sites
uncool2pillow Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Remember Ebola (Should it be capitalized? Chrome wants it that way.)? One of the things I saw over and over about Ebola in America is that people should be much more concerned about diseases that actually kill large numbers of Americans (cancer, heart disease, flu, HIV, etc). Let's apply that logic here. Blacks are most often killed by blacks. As the link I provide shows, whites are most often killed by whites too and there are a lot of reasons for that as the article explains. But if we were to address issues based upon their likelihood to occur, we would be much more focused on deterring gun crime in general. If we could do that, Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin, and countless people from all races might still be alive today. Does this mean strict gun control? Perhaps. We've debated that issue ad nauseum here already. It also means addressing poverty, education, family structure, contraception, abortion, police practices, and a whole bunch of other junk. We cannot, because as soon as any of these serious issues come up, many of us retreat to our political instincts, left or right. So, we continue to live in a broken system. The race riots of the 60s and 70s became L.A. in '92 became Ferguson in '14. My kids will witness more of this when they're my age I am afraid. Fuck. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/07/15/the-trayvon-martin-killing-and-the-myth-of-black-on-black-crime.html Link to post Share on other sites
tinnitus photography Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Essential reading. I'd be pissed as fucking hell too. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/09/03/how-st-louis-county-missouri-profits-from-poverty/ Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Essential reading. I'd pissed as fucking hell too.http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/09/03/how-st-louis-county-missouri-profits-from-poverty/I grew bored and stopped reading about halfway through the article, but if there was nothing more damning than the "plight" of a woman who was arrested for having 4 warrants for failing to pay fines or appear in court for multiple speeding violations, driving with an expired license, tags and inspection sticker, then I don't have a lot of sympathy for her. The law is the law, Link to post Share on other sites
tinnitus photography Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Keep reading, mr lawful. Link to post Share on other sites
Doctor B Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 So now we are profiling the cop? What hypocrisy. Link to post Share on other sites
KevinG Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 I grew bored and stopped reading about halfway through the article, but if there was nothing more damning than the "plight" of a woman who was arrested for having 4 warrants for failing to pay fines or appear in court for multiple speeding violations, driving with an expired license, tags and inspection sticker, then I don't have a lot of sympathy for her. The law is the law,Even though you stop reading halfway through you are still compelled to comment? Jesus. At least you admit you are willfully ignorant. Link to post Share on other sites
uncool2pillow Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 This has shown up at least 3 times on my Facebook feed this morning. Never heard of the guy before, but it is well-written and reflective. Probably too evangelical at the end for many of you. At some point while I was playing or preparing to play Monday Night Football, the news broke about the Ferguson Decision. After trying to figure out how I felt, I decided to write it down. Here are my thoughts:I'M ANGRY because the stories of injustice that have been passed down for generations seem to be continuing before our very eyes.I'M FRUSTRATED, because pop culture, music and movies glorify these types of police citizen altercations and promote an invincible attitude that continues to get young men killed in real life, away from safety movie sets and music studios.I'M FEARFUL because in the back of my mind I know that although I'm a law abiding citizen I could still be looked upon as a "threat" to those who don't know me. So I will continue to have to go the extra mile to earn the benefit of the doubt.I'M EMBARRASSED because the looting, violent protests, and law breaking only confirm, and in the minds of many, validate, the stereotypes and thus the inferior treatment.I'M SAD, because another young life was lost from his family, the racial divide has widened, a community is in shambles, accusations, insensitivity hurt and hatred are boiling over, and we may never know the truth about what happened that day.I'M SYMPATHETIC, because I wasn't there so I don't know exactly what happened. Maybe Darren Wilson acted within his rights and duty as an officer of the law and killed Michael Brown in self defense like any of us would in the circumstance. Now he has to fear the backlash against himself and his loved ones when he was only doing his job. What a horrible thing to endure. OR maybe he provoked Michael and ignited the series of events that led to him eventually murdering the young man to prove a point.I'M OFFENDED, because of the insulting comments I've seen that are not only insensitive but dismissive to the painful experiences of others.I'M CONFUSED, because I don't know why it's so hard to obey a policeman. You will not win!!! And I don't know why some policeman abuse their power. Power is a responsibility, not a weapon to brandish and lord over the populace.I'M INTROSPECTIVE, because sometimes I want to take "our" side without looking at the facts in situations like these. Sometimes I feel like it's us against them. Sometimes I'm just as prejudiced as people I point fingers at. And that's not right. How can I look at white skin and make assumptions but not want assumptions made about me? That's not right.I'M HOPELESS, because I've lived long enough to expect things like this to continue to happen. I'm not surprised and at some point my little children are going to inherit the weight of being a minority and all that it entails.I'M HOPEFUL, because I know that while we still have race issues in America, we enjoy a much different normal than those of our parents and grandparents. I see it in my personal relationships with teammates, friends and mentors. And it's a beautiful thing.I'M ENCOURAGED, because ultimately the problem is not a SKIN problem, it is a SIN problem. SIN is the reason we rebel against authority. SIN is the reason we abuse our authority. SIN is the reason we are racist, prejudiced and lie to cover for our own. SIN is the reason we riot, loot and burn. BUT I'M ENCOURAGED because God has provided a solution for sin through the his son Jesus and with it, a transformed heart and mind. One that's capable of looking past the outward and seeing what's truly important in every human being. The cure for the Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin, Tamir Rice and Eric Garner tragedies is not education or exposure. It's the Gospel. So, finally, I'M ENCOURAGED because the Gospel gives mankind hope. Also, KevinG's replies to Hixter continue to entertain. Link to post Share on other sites
tinnitus photography Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Even though you stop reading halfway through you are still compelled to comment? Jesus. At least you admit you are willfully ignorant.i think it's probably more like 15% of the way through. it's a pretty long article w/ a lot more content. Link to post Share on other sites
uncool2pillow Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Can you give an executive summary? Link to post Share on other sites
Doctor B Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Ben Watson. Tight end for Saints and Georgia Bulldogs Link to post Share on other sites
tinnitus photography Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Can you give an executive summary?sorry tl;dr your post Link to post Share on other sites
uncool2pillow Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 So we should read a painfully long article because it makes important points that you can't (or won't) articulate. OK. Link to post Share on other sites
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