MLB 2007

[rareair]

Bobby V played right field though. I think the homer was to left.

Bobby V was either hurt by 74, or on the Angels also.

 

it is often difficult to determine where bobby v is at any one point in time.

[Lammycat]

it is often difficult to determine where bobby v is at any one point in time.

[bobbob1313]

I'm willing to trade Dontrelle Willis for a large, New York style Pepperoni Pizza and a 10 dollar blockbuster gift card at this point.

[cryptique]

Ooh, or maybe it was Joe Niekro. Though I'd remember if it was a Niekro, I thinkTi

I think the guy I'm thinking of played briefly for BOS a few years later. Tim something.

I guess the answer has already been established, but I was just looking at '74 numbers for the Niekros, and I'm guessing that Phil wouldn't have been in the bullpen that night, because he was almost exclusively a starter that year (39 starts, 41 total appearances). Joe made two starts but the bulk of his appearances were from the 'pen.

 

baseball-reference.com is the best thing ever.

[Sir Stewart]

HERE WE GO RED SOX!

HERE WE GO!

[cryptique]

HERE WE GO RED SOX!

HERE WE GO!

Calm down.

[MrRain422]

[cryptique]

Calm down.

[MrRain422]

I don't wanna.

[benjamin]

 

nice to see the nationally televised game last night. Damn our bullpen knows how to scare me.

hmmmm.... there's an idea, I might be Todd Jones for Halloween

 

 

scary

[MrRain422]

Some friends and I were already talking about going up to Milwaukee on Sunday to boo Barry Bonds, and one of them has a seller on craigslist holding tickets for us. Bonds hit 2 homers today, and is now just 2 behind Aaron. Looks like we may witness history.

[Lammycat]

Looks like we may witness history*.

 

 

*disclaimer: the history you may be witnessing today was most likely attained through cheating. Legitimate home run numbers may be inflated.

[Chendizzle]

If you had the best player in the league for the past decade who was going for the most revered record in sports on your team, and you were at the game, I bet you anything you wouldn't boo. And no matter where he is when he breaks the record, people are going to cheer, like him or not.

 

If I'm surrounded by fans of my own team, it'd be hard to boo (and I'm sure the drunkards would give me some menacing looks), but I would never willinging get up and cheer for a player like that. No way I'm standing up for someone is by all accounts a major asshole and cheater.

[bobbob1313]

The fact of the matter is cheating has been around in baseball since the beginning. It is as firmly ingrained in the culture of Major League Baseball as balls and strikes. There are numerous pitchers in the hall of fame who have admitted to using spit or shine balls, and many who have been accused of using amphetamines or other stimulants to help them through the long grind of the season. It is unavoidable, and to crucify one player who was simply doing what most other players in the league were is unfair. If McGwire hadn't appeared crappy before the congressional panel, there's no question he's a first ballot hall of famer, despite the numerous steroid accusations. It seems unfair to toss the entirety of the game's problems onto Bonds' back, even if he does make it awfully easy to do so.

[MrRain422]

Looks like the craiglist guy hosed us. Oh well.

 

Anyway, here is a pretty interesting article that SI.com did following Kenny Rogers poopy hand incident that gives a pretty good overview of how common it is for pitchers to cheat.

 

I know that some would draw a big distinction between different kinds of cheating, but cheating is cheating, right? I'm all for hating Bonds for being an asshole (because he's a huge one), and if you don't to acknowledge the record, well whatever, that's your right, but I agree with twobobs that too much of the steroids mess has fallen on Bonds's shoulders. He's certainly guilty, but has received a disproportionate amount of the blame.

[Lammycat]

I disagree that all cheating is equal. It's not. There are degrees of cheating.

 

I don't think anyone is heaping all the blame on Bonds for rampant steroid usage, either . Owners and commissioners, etc. have turned a blind eye because of the $$'s that the bashers help bring to the parks. However, it's short-sighted to group Bonds with others who are suspected of steroid use because others suspected of steroid use are not on the verge of breaking the biggest record in the sport. It's that simple. Of course Bond's is going to be the poster child for some fans not being down with steroid use in baseball. Ultimately, it doesn't matter as much if Neifi Perez is caught 'roiding because Neifi Perez is a baseball commoner who will be more or less forgotten about when he's done in baseball.

[MrRain422]

I understand that the chase for the record is the reason that Bonds is under so much more scrutiny. I just think that a lot of the criticism of him does not acknowledge that, and places too much of the blame on him. A lot of people refuse to acknowledge the context of the era in which he played in when they condemn him.

[Lammycat]

But I think a reasonable outlook is that it wasn't/isn't okay for any player to be using steroids, regardless of the "era" as they've been banned since the early 90s. Exempting Bonds because steroid use was wide-spread doesn't jibe with me. Not every player was juiced. There's no evidence that most players were juiced, either.

 

I don't think it's a matter of acknowledging the era he played in when it's boiled down. No one knows how many HRs Bonds would have had/have had he not juiced. Nerdy can bust out all sorts of pythagorean theories/stats whatever but no one knows. The assumption is valid that it'd be markedly less than he currently has, though. If it wouldn't have mattered either way, I guess he wouldn't have needed the juice in the first place. But we'll never know that.

[mountain bed]

Some friends and I were already talking about going up to Milwaukee on Sunday to boo Barry Bonds, and one of them has a seller on craigslist holding tickets for us. Bonds hit 2 homers today, and is now just 2 behind Aaron. Looks like we may witness history.

I've said this before. I hate to see this happen. REALLY hate to see it. But it's just inevitable. I was lucky enough to see Aaron play & I think of what HE had to deal with while chasing the record. But he handled it all with class & dignity.

 

I know it's silly but like I posted before I would like to see an intentional walk every time BB comes to the plate forever & ever. Now THAT would cause a brouhaha!

[bobbob1313]

I know it's silly but like I posted before I would like to see an intentional walk every time BB comes to the plate forever & ever. Now THAT would cause a brouhaha!

 

Especially if the other teams wanted to win.

 

These guys are playing to win, end of story. My favorite quote on the whole issue, and I've posted it before, comes from Firejoemorgan.com:

 

 

Were I a Major League Baseball player from 1993-2004 (it may surprise you to learn that I, in fact, was not), and a teammate of mine told me he was taking steroids in an effort to better his performance, I would have said to that teammate: "Thank you for taking steroids. I hope it makes you, and, consequently, our team better. It seems odd that there are no real penalties for taking steroids. I myself would not take these steroids because there seem to be very serious health risks. But seeing as we are not great friends or anything, and you will probably be playing for a different team in a couple of years, and you seem to have made the decision that steroids are right for you, I am really glad that you are taking these steroids because it might help us win a few games. I hope you don't die prematurely."

 

 

 

That kind of sums it up for me.

[caliber66]

Especially if the other teams wanted to win.

 

These guys are playing to win, end of story. My favorite quote on the whole issue, and I've posted it before, comes from Firejoemorgan.com:

Were I a Major League Baseball player from 1993-2004 (it may surprise you to learn that I, in fact, was not), and a teammate of mine told me he was taking steroids in an effort to better his performance, I would have said to that teammate: "Thank you for taking steroids. I hope it makes you, and, consequently, our team better. It seems odd that there are no real penalties for taking steroids. I myself would not take these steroids because there seem to be very serious health risks. But seeing as we are not great friends or anything, and you will probably be playing for a different team in a couple of years, and you seem to have made the decision that steroids are right for you, I am really glad that you are taking these steroids because it might help us win a few games. I hope you don't die prematurely."

That kind of sums it up for me.

Sorry, bobbob, but that's a retarded outlook.

[boywiththorninside]

I disagree that all cheating is equal. It's not. There are degrees of cheating.

 

I don't think anyone is heaping all the blame on Bonds for rampant steroid usage, either . Owners and commissioners, etc. have turned a blind eye because of the $$'s that the bashers help bring to the parks. However, it's short-sighted to group Bonds with others who are suspected of steroid use because others suspected of steroid use are not on the verge of breaking the biggest record in the sport. It's that simple. Of course Bond's is going to be the poster child for some fans not being down with steroid use in baseball. Ultimately, it doesn't matter as much if Neifi Perez is caught 'roiding because Neifi Perez is a baseball commoner who will be more or less forgotten about when he's done in baseball.

 

I think you can group Bonds with other players suspected of using steroids. Although none are going to break Aaron's record, some of these suspected (and a few admitted) users have accomplished quite a bit in the game:

 

Jose Canseco - 1988 AL MVP

Ken Caminiti - 1996 NL MVP

Jason Giambi - 2000 AL MVP

Rafael Palmeiro - 500 HR and 3,000 hit club (only 4 in history)

Sammy Sosa - 600 HR club (5 in history)

Mark McGwire - 70 HR season, 583 career HR's

 

Not many players win the MVP, not many players hit 500 or 600 HR's. The only difference between Bonds and the players above is Bonds is better. They were all doing the same thing and they were all performing in ways few have. To single out Bonds as is being done makes me almost sympathize with one of the least sympathetic figures ever.

 

Admittedly, I could be completely wrong about this, but I also suspect if Bonds stepped into the Delorean and traveled back in time to face the pitching Ruth and Aaron faced, he would have hit at least 600 HR's (without juice) and maybe 900 or so with the juice. The guy is/was a phenomenal player (with or without the juice). Even when he was built like Urkel, he was winning MVP's.

 

All that said, Bonds is still an a-hole and I understand why people would not want to root for him.

[caliber66]

I think you can group Bonds with other players suspected of using steroids. Although none are going to break Aaron's record, some of these suspected (and a few admitted) users have accomplished quite a bit in the game:

Winning an MVP award ≠ breaking the biggest batting record in baseball. Sorry, it doesn't even come close to comparing.

[tongue-tied lightning]

who cares bout Bonds, the Reds are out of last place.

[boywiththorninside]

Winning an MVP award ≠ breaking the biggest batting record in baseball. Sorry, it doesn't even come close to comparing.

 

You're right. 756 HR's doesn't equal MVP or 500 or 600 HR's. I simply don't think Bonds deserves to stand alone in facing criticism as he has. Bonds is a product of his era and should be judged accordingly. When MVP's are juiced and when other players are accumulating traditonally Hall of Fame numbers using the stuff, I just can't get too crazy about Bonds breaking the HR record. I still can't forget either that Bonds was probably a HOF'er before a needle ever met his ass. People act like roids made Bonds. Roids have certainly helped him to get to 753 HR's, but the guy was great without them. Wouldn't it be funny if Bonds missed the HOF because of the roids when he was probably already in without them?

 

Also, is the HR record the biggest batting record in the sport? What about Rose's hit record? Or DiMaggio's hit streak? The hit streak's a batting record, right? I might say that's the biggest record. It's hardly been challenged in our lifetime, while Rose passed Cobb just over 20 years ago and the HR record will now be broken twice in the last 30-odd years. Further, if (a huge if) his health holds up, A-Rod should break Bonds' number. I know people love the HR, but the hit streak and total hits seems to be tougher milestones. Just a thought. Again, I could be completely wrong and be incorrectly downplaying the cultural significance of the long ball.