Good Old Neon Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Because rights are things we have (not something the government gives us) that the government protects. We have a right to not be killed by other people, and the government exists to prevent others from killing us. Healthcare is something that other people produce. It can't be the recipient's right unless the producer has no right to it. Do we have the right to not be killed by curable diseases, when the cure to that disease exists, but a person does not have access to it? Nineteen thousand plus people die every year due to a lack of health insurance Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bubs101 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 I'm well aware of problems in Ireland, and he may or may not have personal experiences with terrorism, but this doesn't negate the fact that there is cause for fear here among some people. Americans are "insanely stupid" to fear terrorism doesn't gibe with me. There is recent history in the U.S. to easily validate any fears people might have. I'd hardly call 6 years ago recent and personally speaking I think it is insanely stupid. Britain has a much worse problem with such an integrated Islamic population and they still manage everything alright, but in America there are so comparitively few arabs and muslims(probably due in no small part to racism) and no terrorist attack in years, despite giving them reason to attack with ridiculous prison sentences over non-Americans. 4 British men arrested for 2 years in Afghanistan? How is that America's buisiness? Harsh measures like that are insanely stupid Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ikol Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Do we have the right to not be killed by curable diseases, when the cure to that disease exists, but a person does not have access to it? Not really. Does the person/group that developed the cure have the right to do with that cure as they please? If all medical researchers quit doing medical research, would sick people have the right to compel them to do research? Nineteen thousand plus people die every year due to a lack of health insurance – is that not a threat to personal and/or national security? No...or yes...damn negative questions. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lammycat Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Way back in '01. Anyway, I've got too many bones to pick with your opinions so I'll let it lie. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Good Old Neon Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Not really. Does the person/group that developed the cure have the right to do with that cure as they please? If all medical researchers quit doing medical research, would sick people have the right to compel them to do research?No...or yes...damn negative questions. Well, that certainly seems arbitrary. Death by another human, bad Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boywiththorninside Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 I'd hardly call 6 years ago recent and personally speaking I think it is insanely stupid. Britain has a much worse problem with such an integrated Islamic population and they still manage everything alright, but in America there are so comparitively few arabs and muslims(probably due in no small part to racism) and no terrorist attack in years, despite giving them reason to attack with ridiculous prison sentences over non-Americans. 4 British men arrested for 2 years in Afghanistan? How is that America's buisiness? Harsh measures like that are insanely stupid Something about this post reminded of that recent Doris Lessing quote where she seemed to try to quantify how bad 9/11 was in comparison to the acts of the IRA. I don't think you can ever win by trying to say this act of terror was "not as bad" as that act of terror. Or that an act of terror is not recent enough to be kept in memory. From just across the East River, 6 years ago can sometimes seem like yesterday. Britian is handling everything alright? Try to walk anywhere in London without being in view of CCTV. Personally, I would find this invasive, but if this handling everything alright, I guess they are handling everything alright. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Murder is a crime! unless it is done....by a po-lice-man! Or an aristoCRAT! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EL the Famous Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 And all of it spent to give us the illusion of safety. really, all of our defense spending equates to absolutely nothing...an illusion. would we be any safer w/out it? when you make absolute statements like that, versus sticking w/ what i agree to be an solid opinion that there is disproportionate amount of military spending that could be better put to use on things like healthcare...you've lost me again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EL the Famous Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 I'm not sure how you drew that conlcusion. Taken at face value, that piece was tracking an upward trend in Canadian wait times between seeing a general practicioner and a specialist for non-emergency procedures (that very last part might be off, but I'm not going back to check this minute). There's no comparison in that piece to American wait times--which very well might already be higher or increasing at a faster rate. Such data is somewhat hard to come by because there's no U.S. government agency tracking wait times. Here's an article on one study:http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/conte...28/b4042072.htm it didn't say anything about non-emergency procedures and i understand that said study doesn't equate to the same exact performance in a US scenario...but i do look at it and it raises some concerns. i don't think that's wrong. again, if the quality of my family's healthcare stays the same, we can provide adequate heathcare to everybody w/out affecting that, have a financial structure that can legitimately support it and there are certain requirements people have to meet to take part in it (like, holding a job unless physically/mentally unable)...i have no problems. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheMaker Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 I'm perpetually amazed by people like ikol. I mean, how the fuck can you look at yourself in the mirror when you know that you care more about money than people? I'd literally have to kill myself if it ever came to that. Taken at face value, that piece was tracking an upward trend in Canadian wait times between seeing a general practicioner and a specialist for non-emergency procedures (that very last part might be off, but I'm not going back to check this minute). There's no comparison in that piece to American wait times--which very well might already be higher or increasing at a faster rate. Such data is somewhat hard to come by because there's no U.S. government agency tracking wait times. An excellent point. There's no waiting in Canada to see a G.P., to my knowledge. I'm typically able to make same-day appointments with mine, for instance, and if he's on vacation or at a retreat of some kind, I can pop into a walk-in clinic with minimal fuss in the event of an emergency. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheMaker Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 It makes my stomach turn slightly to read these posts from people not living in this country. Not to say they can't have an opinion. I just don't think I could do it. I'll take a page from your probable hero, Bill O'Reilly: SHUT UP. Seriously, shut the fuck up, hypocrite. Remember your cut-and-pasted polemic against Canadian healthcare? I do. And I'm willing to bet hard-earned money (which is something that is more important than people, don't forget) that if I were to scan this forum for posts that you've made, I could pluck out a number of other comments about Iraq, Afghanistan and any number of other non-American lands Another thing I think is horribly wrong with America: you guys can shove it in all the fucking way, but you sure as hell can't take it. We all have to bend over sooner or later, pal. When your economy is sliding into the toilet as a direct result of incompetent foreign and domestic policy, you should actually expect this kind of commentary. Especially when America makes it its business to fuck around on the world stage as a matter of course. Some people just kill me. They really do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ikol Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Well, that certainly seems arbitrary. Death by another human, bad Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EL the Famous Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 pretty compassionate. yup. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ikol Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 pretty compassionate. yup. So you're saying that money is more important than people, eh? I bet TheMaker wants you to kill yourself. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jules Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 When your economy is sliding into the toilet When is this happening? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 As an escapee from Michigan, I can assure you that some segments of the economy are beyond terrible. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EL the Famous Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 So you're saying that money is more important than people, eh? I bet TheMaker wants you to kill yourself. i'd eat a live baby for a big pile of money...or at least a petri dish full of embryos. saurion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Embryos taste best with Thousand Island dressing. Just trust me on this. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Good Old Neon Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Who said anything about which is worse? I just said that one was a violation of rights, and the other wasn't. I wasn't twisting a question but posing one. Are you the only one allowed to do that? If so, I apologize for the previous sentence.Yeah, saying that I don't think healthcare is a right is equivalent to saying that I care more about money than people. Way to elevate the discussion. Would it be morally defensible for food producers to stop producing food, or only produce food for a certain segment of the population? How about water Quote Link to post Share on other sites
M. (hristine Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Huh. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aricandover Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Huh. didn't this guys ask for his account to be deleted? Hey, that's not a bad idea. M. Christine - feel free to cancel my account. Analogman - I wish you well in everything you do - sincerely - oh, and you as well Atticus - I will respond to your very thoughtful pm shortly. To those I have offended - my apologies. Over and out..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EL the Famous Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Huh. that's called 'grasping at straws'. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JUDE Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 I would support nationalized health care if it came with the right for me beat the livin' bejesus out of every 350lb diabetic I see getting their daily super-sized meal at Mc. Donalds. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Good Old Neon Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 that's called 'grasping at straws'. It Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ction Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 jnickerson went to the Gene Simmons school of goodbyes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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