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Hot Stove Part II

MrRain422

By MrRain422,
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JerseyMike

JerseyMike

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Done deal. 7 yr/$150 +M:

 

I guess the Mets had a gun to their heads, but thats way too many years and a lot of dough. Thats becoming Minya's MO.

 

The big talk here in NY with this deal going down is that Mets are now favorites to win the NL. What do you guys think?

 

IMO, I think its ridiculous, considering the rest of the staff, which could be very good, is filled with more question marks than anything else:

 

Santana- The best pitcher in the league, or on his way down?

Martinez- how many games will he win if his fastball is in the high eighties and low ninties like it was when he came back?

Maine- his record was good last year, but is he the very good pitcher from the 1st half or the mediocre one of the 2nd?

Perez- no doubt he's very talented, but will he ever put it together for an entire season?

El Duque- I love El Duque, but A) he's older than dirt B) can't give you a full season

Pelfrey- considered the jewel of the Mets system until he got shelled last year.

 

Plus, the bullpen is spotty. Heilman has thrown a lot of innings in the past 2 seasons, Sanchez missed the entire year and is coming back from shoulder surgery and Wagner is very good....until it matters.

 

Please discuss...

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bjorn_skurj

bjorn_skurj

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I think the Mets everyday lineup is good enough - providing Delgado doesn't totally shit the bed like he did in '07 - that if they get even a little bit of decent pitching, they'll be in the postseason. Last year's collapse, most observers agree, was due to an overstressed rotation overstressing the bullpen, which ultimately just ran out of gas. Santana immediately upgrades the rotation, obviously, and is the kind of pitcher that can be the decisive factor in a short postseason series.

It's hard to be sure what will happen with the rest of the rotation. Best case scenario - Pedro and El D. stay reasonably healthy and perform reasonably well; Maine and Perez at least do not get worse (Maine's great game the game before Glavine's awful game at the end of the season gives me some hope that he will mature into a pitcher who can be solid for a whole year) - the Mets could have a 100-win season. This will be a critical year for Pelfrey in determining whether he will be great, good, meh or sucky. He's kind of number 6 right now in the starting rotation anyway, so I don't know if he will be key in the Mets' fate.

As for the bullpen, we shall see. There will be a lot of competition for bullpen spots - Wagner, Heilman, Feliciano are inked in, as well as Duaner "fuck all Miami taxi drivers" Sanchez, if his shoulder holds out. (Seriously, if I had been governor of New York when that crash happened, I would have ordered the Air National Guard to launch punitive strikes against Miami taxi stands.) Joe Smith showed promise at times last year, Jorge Sosa was great for a stretch as a starter until he got injured, and did contribute some in the bullpen, IIRC. Hopefully, spring training will produce the best two or three additional arms and a few more to spare.

Did they pay too much? Who can say? I'm reasonably sure that Boston or the Yanks, had they made that trade, would have had to cough up a similar package; how could you not? Santana was in the strongest possible bargaining position, so to diss on Omar is unfair. The Mets really needed to make a huge move - this move - to create some optimism about the coming year and to mend fences with their fans. (In contrast to the Yanks, whose fan base would have revolted if they traded their prospects for Santana. It seems the MO's of the New York teams have flipped, at least for the time being, perhaps due to the old kaiser not having as much pull as he used to, if he has any at all.)

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bjorn_skurj

bjorn_skurj

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that's what I was trying to say :thumbup

Thanks. Somewhere in Albuquerque, my Bill Lee card collection is stored. I have almost all of them, most in mint condition.

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JerseyMike

JerseyMike

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Mikey, are you a Met fan ?

 

God no! I am a Yankees fan through and through. I HATE the Mets, and all the caps in the world couldn't stress that enough!

 

I do think the Mets now have become the favorites in the NL East, no doubt. I'm just trying to get some interesting baseball discussions going. Also, I can't blame the Mets for giving Santana the dough. They really had no choice. Either they gave him what he wanted or the trade falls through and he ends up with the Sox or the Yanks, which Mets fans would never forgive. And as far as Minaya goes, he has overpaid for players like Pedro (giving him the extra year nobody would give him) and Beltran (they gave him $2M more than any other team in the league) but he has made some very good trades. When he made the Nady for Hernandez (roberto) and Perez trade, I was pissed that the Yanks didn't go after Perez since he was basically a throw-in in that deal. The guy had some bad years in Pittsburgh, but he's young and has temendous talent. You also have to remember that he got Maine as a throw-in in a deal that essentially sent Kris Benson to the Orioles for Jorge Julio. And even though the deal really didn't work out, I liked the trade he made went he sent Brian Bannister to the Royals for Ambiorix Burgos. Burgos didn't pitch well and now he's hurt, but the guy has an amazing upside, he's very young and he throws in the high '90's and any bullpen can use a guy like that. I was a bit miffed at some of his deals this offseason though, like the deal that sent Lastings Milledge for two platoon players (Schneider and Church). Minaya's also a great guy. (We go to the same gym!)

 

But let me go back to my point: are the Mets really the favorites to win the NL? Let's not forget the D-backs, who made the playoffs with an extremely young team last year, have added Dan Haren and may get some back-of-the-rotation boost if Randy Johnson is healthy. And there's also the Padres, who have Peavey and Young at the front of their rotation and have some pitchers that could really help them: Maddux, Randy Wolfe and if he's healthy, anf this is a BIG "if", Mark Prior. They've also made a lot of minor moves that could improve their less-than-stellar offense: Jim Edmonds and Tad Iguchi. And, of course, there's also the Cubbies, the Brewers (Gange, Cameron, Riske and Torres), the young Dodgers with Joe Torre leading them and the 2007 NL Champion Rockies team. And in the NL East alone, there is the Philis (who don't look so great on paper, but they did win the NL East last year) and the Braves, who have a very potent offense. A lot of teams in the NL have improved and it could be a lot more competitive than it was last year.

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bobbob1313

bobbob1313

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Hence me saying that regardless of the teams, any game has the potential to be great.

 

How consistently putting some of the best players in the MLB on the field for decades upon decades translates to boring baseball is beyond me. I think your gripe may be more in tune with the way American League v. National League ball is traditionally played, rather than the particular way the NYY or BOS play ball.

 

The 2004 post season had importance and made history for more reasons than who was playing. The games will go down in the annals as historic because they were riveting, dramatic, intense, etc., and because it was the biggest comeback in the post season ever- regarless of your disdain for either team.

 

Again, to each his own. But to consistantly dismiss either the NYY or BOS teams because you're sick of the national attention they recieve comes off as sour grapes.

 

 

*****This chunk of the thread should probably be moved to the basebakl thread. Apologies to Giants fans for the highjack.

 

It has nothing to do with the players or the teams involved. It has to do with the style of play that the Yankees and Red Sox excel at. They have OBP machines down the line. They take alot of pitches. They foul alot of pitches off. They walk alot. The games drag on forever. It is great fundamental baseball if you want to win, but it is exceedingly boring if you have no vested interest in the teams and just want to see some baseball.

 

The Yankees and Red Sox are always among the 5 best teams in the league precisely because of the style of baseball they play, but that doesn't mean that style is conducive to entertaining baseball. Who is a more entertaining player to watch: Jose Reyes or Kevin Youkilis? No question Jose Reyes is the more exciting player, but you could make an argument that Youkilis is the better player.

 

Anyone who knows me knows I despise small ball. But it is more entertaining to watch.

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Lammycat

Lammycat

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It has nothing to do with the players or the teams involved. It has to do with the style of play that the Yankees and Red Sox excel at. They have OBP machines down the line. They take alot of pitches. They foul alot of pitches off. They walk alot. The games drag on forever. It is great fundamental baseball if you want to win, but it is exceedingly boring if you have no vested interest in the teams and just want to see some baseball.

 

The Yankees and Red Sox are always among the 5 best teams in the league precisely because of the style of baseball they play, but that doesn't mean that style is conducive to entertaining baseball. Who is a more entertaining player to watch: Jose Reyes or Kevin Youkilis? No question Jose Reyes is the more exciting player, but you could make an argument that Youkilis is the better player.

 

Anyone who knows me knows I despise small ball. But it is more entertaining to watch.

I agree there's a distinction, but it's not just the Yankees and the Red Sox that play this style of ball. I'd include OAK, CLE, and the D'Rays (to an extent). The power-ball is stereotypical of more American League teams, in general. Teams that play the traditional speed/base-path ball more are typically from the National League (SEA, FLA, StL, LAD, etc.). That was my main point.

 

I find both styles of play interesting. I enjoy watching teams like the NYM and PHI that seemingly utilize a little style from both Leagues, too.

 

Still, it's merely a personal taste in stating that NYY and BOS games are boring or that Player A is more exciting to watch than Player B because of a personal preference in the style of their game. I'm fine with that. I enjoy watching guys take a lot of pitches, work counts, battle at the plate, etc. and some people don't.

 

I also don't mind a 3 hour (+) game, though.

 

Personally, I think the distinction (speed, bunts, advancing runners v. power) in league styles (generalization, of course) is what makes inter-league and post-season ball so enjoyable.

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