Obama's speech on race

[MrRain422]

Decriminalizing =/= legalizing.

[Beltmann]

I wasn't directly addressing Wright in my post, but as a Christian preacher he should be following the example of Christ and be willing to forgive "white America" instead of spreading hate with conspiracy theories and racially-charged tirades.

The media-driven narrative assumes two things are beyond question:

1. Rev. Wright hates white people.

2. Rev. Wright preached hate every single Sunday.

 

Are those assumptions a "fair and balanced" summary of Wright's ministry? I've actually listened to the full sermons in question, as well as a number of other sermons, and what I heard was this:

1. Rev. Wright does not hate white people, but hates institutional racism and said so from the pulpit using provocative terms and metaphors. He also doesn't hate America, but hates some of its foreign and domestic policies.

2. Rev. Wright also gave very Christian, uplifting sermons--if those sermons were the dominant Sunday fare, I can understand why Obama was willing to stay in those pews for 20 years. I can't say whether such uplifting messages actually were the norm, but it's clear that there is reason to question the MSM's assertion that a handful of de-contextualized clips are unassailable "proof" that Jeremiah Wright is a hate-monger. The facts of his career, taken in totality, suggest otherwise--even if the MSM doesn't want to bother checking into that. (Complexity is the enemy of a good scandal!)

 

Speaking of following the example of Christ, isn't Obama's response to Wright an utterly Christian one? After all, in his speech he clarified how he hated the sin but loved the sinner. Sounds like someone paid attention in Sunday School--now if only Hannity and Coulter would brush up on their Scripture...

[JerseyMike]

Black people are sentenced to prison at a higher rate than white people who committed the same crime, and black people who are sent to prison get longer sentences on average than white people who committed the same crime. To give just one example, a 1998 study by the Pennsylvania State Correctional System found that white men aged 18-29 were 38% less likely to be sentenced to prison than black men of the same age group, and those that were sentenced to prison received an average of 3 months shorter sentence.

 

You can boil this down to looking at the difference in punishment for cocaine vs. crack. And although there is definitely a difference in crime and punishment between black and white, a lot of those stats are skewed, because the true difference in most cases are monetary and involve poor defendants getting proper and capable representation.

 

When I see Rev. Wright or others so angry and spreading hate, I wonder "geeze, this is the 21st centery.. get over it.. let's just love each other damnit!"

 

Easy for you to say, whitey.

 

Great answer! My answer would have been "take a walk through Newark."

 

I think the big problem with race in this country: whites don't get offended by the word Honkey.

 

Is anyone else extremely disturbed that most of Wright's comments that are being used against Obama were

actually quotes? I haven't seen this mentioned on the news at all.

[Tweedling]

I think the big problem with race in this country: whites don't get offended by the word Honkey.

Speak for yourself! I prefer Cracker or Red Neck...wait....can a black person be called a Red Neck? I'm so confused now!

[ikol]

The media-driven narrative assumes two things are beyond question:

1. Rev. Wright hates white people.

2. Rev. Wright preached hate every single Sunday.

 

So how many Sundays can he preach hate before it becomes a problem?

 

Are those assumptions a "fair and balanced" summary of Wright's ministry? I've actually listened to the full sermons in question, as well as a number of other sermons, and what I heard was this:

1. Rev. Wright does not hate white people, but hates institutional racism and said so from the pulpit using provocative terms and metaphors. He also doesn't hate America, but hates some of its foreign and domestic policies.

2. Rev. Wright also gave very Christian, uplifting sermons--if those sermons were the dominant Sunday fare, I can understand why Obama was willing to stay in those pews for 20 years. I can't say whether such uplifting messages actually were the norm, but it's clear that there is reason to question the MSM's assertion that a handful of de-contextualized clips are unassailable "proof" that Jeremiah Wright is a hate-monger. The facts of his career, taken in totality, suggest otherwise--even if the MSM doesn't want to bother checking into that. (Complexity is the enemy of a good scandal!)

 

To be fair, I haven't read or listened to the full sermons, but I did read an expanded version of the "God Damn America" sermon posted here. The several paragraphs of leftwing talking points (including comparing Clarence Thomas to Uncle Tom and several distortions and downright lies) didn't seem to put it in a better light.

 

Speaking of following the example of Christ, isn't Obama's response to Wright an utterly Christian one? After all, in his speech he clarified how he hated the sin but loved the sinner. Sounds like someone paid attention in Sunday School--now if only Hannity and Coulter would brush up on their Scripture...

 

Yeah, I would say Obama's response was fairly Christian. My only problem is that - - while Jesus would certainly love the sinner -- if someone was giving false teachings in the name of God, he would correct them (as he did many times in the New Testament).

[MrRain422]

You can boil this down to looking at the difference in punishment for cocaine vs. crack. And although there is definitely a difference in crime and punishment between black and white, a lot of those stats are skewed, because the true difference in most cases are monetary and involve poor defendants getting proper and capable representation.

 

Sure, but why are so many black people disproportionately too poor to afford proper representation? It's the same issue.

[Elixir Sue]

*ahem* Just because someone has a public defender does NOT necessarily mean they don't have proper & capable representation. But I digress...carry on.

[Beltmann]

So how many Sundays can he preach hate before it becomes a problem?

My point was to challenge the assumption that Wright was preaching hate against white people, which I think is a false assumption. I might quibble with his provocative terminologies, tone, taste, or dips into anger, but in general I don't have a problem with a pastor preaching hate against institutional racism or corrupt government policies. In fact, confronting social ills is part of a long Christian tradition. (I'm not sure where character assassination fits into the Christian tradition, but I'm sure Rush Limbaugh will explain it to me.)

 

The several paragraphs of leftwing talking points (including comparing Clarence Thomas to Uncle Tom and several distortions and downright lies) didn't seem to put it in a better light.

There's the rub. You're talking not about Wright's "hatred," but about your philosophical or political differences with Wright--he probably feels that conservatives are the ones guilty of distortion and lies. That can be productively debated without knee-jerk accusations of racism or anti-Americanism. Or perhaps the faith and patriotism of every pastor with left-wing leanings ought to be questioned?

 

Yeah, I would say Obama's response was fairly Christian. My only problem is that - - while Jesus would certainly love the sinner -- if someone was giving false teachings in the name of God, he would correct them (as he did many times in the New Testament).

Didn't Obama say that Wright's comments were "profoundly" mistaken? Should he have spoken up sooner? Perhaps. I wish he had. But that inaction might be forgivable if we allow for the possibility that such incendiary comments were anomalies, not every Sunday. It's worth noting the additional sermons I listened to were spectacularly uncontroversial in their espousal of conventional Christian values. In terms of theology, tone, and substance, they were not much different from the sermons I hear in my white suburban evangelical church. (Plus, I maintain that most of Wright's "famous" comments are far less controversial when considered in context.)

 

The most important thing, I think, is that Obama's record and character are living proof--a very powerful correction--that he disagrees with Wright's obsolete view of racial politics.

[ikol]

There's the rub. You're talking not about Wright's "hatred," but about your philosophical or political differences with Wright--he probably feels that conservatives are the ones guilty of distortion and lies. That can be productively debated without knee-jerk accusations of racism or anti-Americanism. Or perhaps the faith and patriotism of every pastor with left-wing leanings ought to be questioned?

 

Fair enough. I don't think his comments have to be racist or anti-American to be vile. Of course, given Wright's heavy use of distortions and character assassination in his sermons, he shouldn't be too surprised to find himself the target of the same type of attacks.

 

The most important thing, I think, is that Obama's record and character are living proof--a very powerful correction--that he disagrees with Wright's obsolete view of racial politics.

 

I agree with you on that, and my criticism is intended to be directed at Wright moreso than Obama.

[Good Old Neon]

I

[bjorn_skurj]

I

[Atticus]

Is this what Rev. Wright was doing? Self-promoting?

 

I did not suggest that he was

[MrRain422]

Okay, then what were you saying?

[Tweedling]

I did not suggest that he was

"So what you're saying is blah blah wrong assumption blah blah blah?"

 

 

-My mr rain impression.

[bobbob1313]

I am typing things.

[Reni]

"So what you're saying is blah blah wrong assumption blah blah blah?"

 

 

-My mr rain impression.

 

I hung out with him yesterday and he didn't sound anything like that. Weird.

[TheMaker]

I WAS AT A CHRISTMAS PARTY with a man who wanted me to hate him. I should hate all whites, he felt, for what they have done to me.

 

I am, if anything, far more progressive than the next guy. I am also somewhat unorthodox in my political views (example: I've been ridiculing Earth Hour for the past week, but that's simply because I refuse to own a car and the only electrical devices on in my apartment right now are this computer and a small space heater; wow, practical living geared to actual solutions to pressing issues instead of just lip service). It's because of this that I am able to laugh my ass off at the ridiculous man the author mentions here. For the sake of nothing less than his very sanity, I hope he's atoning for some wrongdoing he has personally committed against black America. Exactly how divisive and unproductive is his thinking, on a scale from 1 to 10? Forty-seven? Somewhere in that neighbourhood, I suspect. Reminds me a little of Malcolm X during his radical phase, truthfully.

 

On the subject of race in the United States, I am largely baffled by it. Grievances are often left unaired, you occasionally see wealthy white progressives who feel personally responsible for the misdeeds of their slaver ancestors (???!!!), blacks of every stripe sometimes feel as if they are owed financial restitution for the treatment of their ancestors (they must get along famously with the former group), and on and on. It seems to me that there is a categorical inability to simply get past America's pre-civil rights era transgressions and move gracefully into a fairer, saner and more transparent future in which people are treated like people, regardless of their hue.

 

For me, as an outsider perched on the fence which surrounds America's backyard, it was incredibly refreshing to see Sen. Obama discuss the topic of race with the kind of candor I've longed to see dragged into the public discourse. Every time this guy opens his mouth, I find another reason to like him (and I don't like many politicians). Since he's all but bested Hillary (you wouldn't know it to read the press, but according to political process and simple math, she's precisely as screwed as Huckabee was in the last days of his run for the White House), here's hoping he can find a way to overcome America's innate conservatism and give that Bush rerun McCain what-for.

[giraffo]

I hate the topic of racism because of all the stupid buzzwords that come up, it's like a sure-fire way of realizing the person you're discussing it with hasn't bothered to actually articulate their OWN opinion on the idea because they're just been gobbling up whatever was thrown their way. it always is some dumb variation of "haven't we paid enough" or "they haven't paid enough." I think it's silly trying to drop guilt on generations of people whose background don't involve either slavery or racism. End of.

 

also, for the large group of Obamanites on the board:

1. How can you support a man who is earnestly keeping nukes on the table in regards to Iran? (that's not change, hope, or progressive.)

2. Don't you find it a little flat out dumb for Obama's wife to be making comments that are essentially the same thing as the statements he has to defend his political ass from in regards to Wright? ("...for the first time in my adult life...")

3. and lastly, what even makes Obama a different politician? I really wanted to like the guy. I really wanted to believe that he could actually change things. But really... at the end of the day, the guy's a politician and nothing he supports or proposes looks to be progressive in any way. It seems to me he's just a politician who happens to be young, but I don't think that separates him from Hillary or McCain. It's all divisive distracting bullshit that in the end doesn't really result in anything in regards to how things work in the country. It seems to me like believing in Obama is almost like how I personally see believing in God: you can hope and pray and believe he's there, but that doesn't mean he actually is.

 

In reality, I can't say I'm super educated on Obama, but come on. The guy is probably the last black person in America to be talking about racial issues. I mean the guy as in Indonesia and Hawaii for the first 10 years of his life, and then after that lived a more or less priveleged life. How much pressing racial issues does a guy like that face? It just seems pretty ignorant for people to take him seriously when he had it pretty easy, even easier than probably everyone in general.

[TheMaker]

I was sort of with you until that last comment. You can't have it both ways, can you? I agree that race relations often boil down to unfortunate buzzwords, but I don't agree that "Obama isn't black enough," which is the line you're effectively parroting here. And besides, you have to be a rich fuck in order to become the president of the United States of America.

 

Let's face it: the deck is stacked. When you've got fixed elections on a four-year cycle that are loaded with rock-star politicians, a candidate must be willing and able to spend mega-bucks in order to maintain a constant media profile over a very, very long haul. (No, it doesn't just seem long to Americans - to contrast, the typical election season is around two months long where I come from, never mind two years.) You've also gotta feed the corporate beast, and those kinds of contacts don't just manifest overnight. They're the product of endless bargaining over the span of more years than the average politician has in him or her to serve.

 

The whole scenario is a shitty deal, and it's one that isn't exactly conducive to overnight change, but unless you guys feel like gutting your entire politics, it's something that probably won't ever go away as we race further into a new century that is dominated by a ubiquitous media presence, discomfiting bedfellows 'twixt the media and the corporate world, and consumers who are always hungry for quick fixes.

 

I think people are excited about Obama because he represents a bid for change; whether that change will come to pass is another matter entirely, but it at least his call for it represents a break from the politics of the last eight years. That said, I haven't seen him bringing forth anything as detailed and promising as, say, Hillary's plan for the creation of so-called "green-collar jobs," or her plan to adequately fund Medicare and Medicaid while expanding it to offer coverage to every American who might need and want it - but the man is no fool. I think an Obama administration would likely be stocked with plenty of experienced and pragmatic minds that could devise practical solutions (or at least semi-solutions) to the problems of the day.

[Beltmann]

2. Don't you find it a little flat out dumb for Obama's wife to be making comments that are essentially the same thing as the statements he has to defend his political ass from in regards to Wright? ("...for the first time in my adult life...")

What she said was, "for the first time in my adult life I'm really proud...," which implies that she was proud before, but now is very proud. More importantly, she clearly was referring strictly to American politics, not America in general. I watched that entire speech on TV, heard the comment in context, and it was completely uncontroversial. This became a controversy only when the right-wing talking heads decided to willfully misinterpret the comment in order to cynically score dumb gotcha points.

 

3. and lastly, what even makes Obama a different politician? I really wanted to like the guy. I really wanted to believe that he could actually change things. But really... at the end of the day, the guy's a politician and nothing he supports or proposes looks to be progressive in any way.

Progressives for Obama [editorial at The Nation]

[MrRain422]

"So what you're saying is blah blah wrong assumption blah blah blah?"

 

 

-My mr rain impression.

 

You're clever.

[Tweedling]

I'm just typing things........on a rock band message board.

[boywiththorninside]

I admit to having not read this entire thread, so forgive me if anything I write is recycled. Also, I admit to not being as politically well-versed as most people here probably are. I simply can

[JerseyMike]

By being so closely associated with Rev. Wright, Obama falls short.

 

Thats assuming that the few snippets of a few sermons represents the man's entire career and his life. I just don't understand how one person can be held so accountable for somebody else's words and views. I also feel that there is a double-standard working here, when Pat Buchanon can say this on National Televison, and he is still employed by MSNBC:

 

"America has been the best country on earth for black folks. It was here that 600,000 black people, brought from Africa in slave ships, grew into a community of 40 million, were introduced to Christian salvation, and reached the greatest levels of freedom and prosperity blacks have ever known. Wright ought to go down on his knees and thank God he is an American."

 

But its ok for Buchanon, why? Because he is white? Because its expected of him?

[bjorn_skurj]

Now none of this makes Obama a bad person or necessarily means that I won