New Election 2008 thread

[MrRain422]

I am no fan of Bush at all and have no desire to defend his continued blunders that made it possible for Barack Obama to win the nomination. People are so depressed and disenchanted with government (and they should be) that they want to project all their hopes and dreams onto a fresh face. Barack serves that purpose. On the surface he certainly seems a nice enough guy.

 

Barack is largely a mystery, so all we have to go on is who he has associated himself with, and that list is a bit frightening. Not to say that Barack has all the same principles of a Rezko (convicted criminal), Ayers (terrorist), Wright (racist), Davis (communist), Malley (advisor and Hamas contact), Pfleger (a-hole), etc. But Barack's pattern of who is allowed in his inner circle is alarming. Even his wife has a history of foot-in-mouth moments that cause one to question her motives as well.

 

Giving Barack a free pass is an incredible leap of faith for a country that is currently circling the drain. So, excuse me if I don't immediately buy into his load of crap. I would love nothing more than for him to be the cure all, or at least lead us in the right direction. I intended to find reasons to support him, but only found more red flags and increased my doubts about the man. Once you get past his cronies, there are is is campaign platform to deal with. And call it what you want, but it's all socialism to me.

 

What exactly is a mystery about him? He wrote a very candid book about his life, he's been very open about everything. If there's anything you want to know about him, it's pretty much all out in the open.

 

Let's look at who McCain associates himself with. He courted crazy fuck religious folk way worse than anyone associated with Obama. His entire inner circle are major lobbyists, and he was implicated in one of the worst lobbyist scandals in Congressional history. And let's not forget about his embrace of the policies of noted war criminal George W. Bush.

 

Anyone who gets involved in high level politics is going to run into some bad people. You can't just look at who he's been around, you have to look at what his actual relationship with them was. People have tried to pin Rezko on him forever, and every single person who's looked into it has come to the conclusion that their relationship was above water. Obama and Ayers both served on the board of an anti-poverty philanthrophy organization, so clearly Obama must be a terrorist. Wright and Pfleger -- well, since you know everything about them based on five minutes of video, clearly you're right and they're awful people that no one should ever talk to and should be shunned by society.

 

The claim that Obama is getting a "free pass" is completely laughable considering the amount of attention that has been given to unimportant things like Rev. Wright, the lapel pin, the false claims that he attended a madrassa, etc.

[Guest Cousin Tupelo]

I am no fan of Bush at all and have no desire to defend his continued blunders that made it possible for Barack Obama to win the nomination. People are so depressed and disenchanted with government (and they should be) that they want to project all their hopes and dreams onto a fresh face. Barack serves that purpose. On the surface he certainly seems a nice enough guy.

 

Barack is largely a mystery, so all we have to go on is who he has associated himself with, and that list is a bit frightening. Not to say that Barack has all the same principles of a Rezko (convicted criminal), Ayers (terrorist), Wright (racist), Davis (communist), Malley (advisor and Hamas contact), Pfleger (a-hole), etc. But Barack's pattern of who is allowed in his inner circle is alarming. Even his wife has a history of foot-in-mouth moments that cause one to question her motives as well.

 

Giving Barack a free pass is an incredible leap of faith for a country that is currently circling the drain. So, excuse me if I don't immediately buy into his load of crap. I would love nothing more than for him to be the cure all, or at least lead us in the right direction. I intended to find reasons to support him, but only found more red flags and increased my doubts about the man. Once you get past his cronies, there are is is campaign platform to deal with. And call it what you want, but it's all socialism to me.

 

To quote someone from the other wing of the house: ditto, ditto, ditto.

[bjorn_skurj]

Perhaps I am under the Obama spell too. He does present himself as a good candidate and he did not vote to invade Iraq.

Since he was not in the U.S. Senate at the time, not voting to invade Iraq was pretty easy.

[fatheadfred]

We call this "trying to get elected."

 

 

And we do need a dose of socialism. But Obama won't be the one to deliver it. It's going to take you and me and a van with a megaphone on the roof.

 

Aware of that. That better be a bullet proof megaphone. Our country struggles to understand that socialism is not a bad word. Is there another word for taxing and providing social security? We practice forms of socialism, which I agree with, however, the consistency of it seems to vary depending on whether the elephants or the donkos are in charge.

[fatheadfred]

Since he was not in the U.S. Senate at the time, not voting to invade Iraq was pretty easy.

 

good point, shows you I was sweet talked into this perception. He didn't 'support' it is his statement, not he didn't 'vote' for it.

[Guest Cousin Tupelo]

What exactly is a mystery about him? He wrote a very candid book about his life, he's been very open about everything. If there's anything you want to know about him, it's pretty much all out in the open.

 

-- Ghost writers crafted two books that pain him in the most positive light. Every candidate since Profiles In Courage has done it.

 

Let's look at who McCain associates himself with. He courted crazy fuck religious folk way worse than anyone associated with Obama. His entire inner circle are major lobbyists, and he was implicated in one of the worst lobbyist scandals in Congressional history. And let's not forget about his embrace of the policies of noted war criminal George W. Bush.

 

-- So McCain wins because his religious leaders are less "crazy fuck religious folk" than McCain's "Crazy fuck religious folk"? (Hmm, maybe Heaven's Gate was right ...)

 

Anyone who gets involved in high level politics is going to run into some bad people. You can't just look at who he's been around, you have to look at what his actual relationship with them was. People have tried to pin Rezko on him forever, and every single person who's looked into it has come to the conclusion that their relationship was above water. Obama and Ayers both served on the board of an anti-poverty philanthrophy organization, so clearly Obama must be a terrorist. Wright and Pfleger -- well, since you know everything about them based on five minutes of video, clearly you're right and they're awful people that no one should ever talk to and should be shunned by society.

 

The claim that Obama is getting a "free pass" is completely laughable considering the amount of attention that has been given to unimportant things like Rev. Wright, the lapel pin, the false claims that he attended a madrassa, etc.

 

-- Rev Wright was cited in the book Obama was to have written.

 

The bottom line is

 

All the low-level static that's bleated in mainstream press makes little difference -- you said it yourself much, much earlier. The bottom line is most of the people who support Obama are driven by the same blindness that gave Bush a majority in 2004 (and nearly a majority in 2000). "Change"? To what? My eyes and ears are open, I hope he proves himself worthy of the blind trust he's being given.

 

But as has also been pointed out, if he's not we are even more screwed than we are under Bush because we'll flounder rudderless in a completely opposite direction. The wrong liberal approaches applied to the economic and political backlash we've suffered in the last 7+ years could be disastrous.

[MrRain422]

And at the time he gave a very passionate speech opposing the war. Sure, his perspective may have been different if he were in the Senate at the time, but it's not as though he jumped on to the anti-war bandwagon only after deciding to run for President. He was very vocal and prescient about the war since well before the invasion.

[myboyblue]

The claim that Obama is getting a "free pass" is completely laughable considering the amount of attention that has been given to unimportant things like Rev. Wright, the lapel pin, the false claims that he attended a madrassa, etc.

 

Don't forget about the "fist bump".

[MrRain422]

All the low-level static that's bleated in mainstream press makes little difference -- you said it yourself much, much earlier. The bottom line is most of the people who support Obama are driven by the same blindness that gave Bush a majority in 2004 (and nearly a majority in 2000). "Change"? To what? My eyes and ears are open, I hope he proves himself worthy of the blind trust he's being given.

 

He's been pretty explicit about what he wants to change and how.

 

But as has also been pointed out, if he's not we are even more screwed than we are under Bush because we'll flounder rudderless in a completely opposite direction. The wrong liberal approaches applied to the economic and political backlash we've suffered in the last 7+ years could be disastrous.

 

Please explain.

 

No one really believes that Obama will fix everything or that anything will be easy, other than the small group of crazy followers that every politician has -- most of his supporters understand that our problems are complicated and that there are no guarantees about anything. But his ideas make a whole lot of sense, and I'm happy to take the chance on him rather than continuing with policies that are proven failures, which is what McCain proposes.

[uncle wilco]

Can you please describe, in detail, how and why Obama is a socialist? Maybe give us some examples of his socialism in practice?

 

Though, since you

[bleedorange]

And at the time he gave a very passionate speech opposing the war. Sure, his perspective may have been different if he were in the Senate at the time, but it's not as though he jumped on to the anti-war bandwagon only after deciding to run for President. He was very vocal and prescient about the war since well before the invasion.

 

 

Of course he was against the war. He is a Muslim after all, right?

[dannygutters]

And call it what you want, but it's all socialism to me.

 

What a stupid thing to say.

 

Obama's no socialist in speech or action. Obama is a democratic centerist if you need to label him. He has no liberal stances outside of the centerist democrat platform on gun control or abortion or gay marriage. All these labels we use in politics are endemic to the continued selection of poor leaders. Every candidate in my lifetime has labeled himself as a christian of some type yet we've never had a pacifist president or one who added more than lipservice to working on poverty and hunger.

[explodo]

I am no fan of Bush at all and have no desire to defend his continued blunders that made it possible for Barack Obama to win the nomination. People are so depressed and disenchanted with government (and they should be) that they want to project all their hopes and dreams onto a fresh face. Barack serves that purpose. On the surface he certainly seems a nice enough guy.

 

Barack is largely a mystery, so all we have to go on is who he has associated himself with, and that list is a bit frightening. Not to say that Barack has all the same principles of a Rezko (convicted criminal), Ayers (terrorist), Wright (racist), Davis (communist), Malley (advisor and Hamas contact), Pfleger (a-hole), etc. But Barack's pattern of who is allowed in his inner circle is alarming. Even his wife has a history of foot-in-mouth moments that cause one to question her motives as well.

 

Giving Barack a free pass is an incredible leap of faith for a country that is currently circling the drain. So, excuse me if I don't immediately buy into his load of crap. I would love nothing more than for him to be the cure all, or at least lead us in the right direction. I intended to find reasons to support him, but only found more red flags and increased my doubts about the man. Once you get past his cronies, there are is is campaign platform to deal with. And call it what you want, but it's all socialism to me.

 

Free pass? Come on.

 

And who cares who he can be associated with? You can associate me with dozens of racist hillbillies but that doesn't make me one. How about looking at something like how his campaign has been run? There were hiccups, sure, but overall Team Obama killed it. If his Presidency is half as organized and intelligent, we're in for a sweet ride.

[MrRain422]

i suggest you do your own research starting with his own campaign website. i've already done mine. that's the problem with todays voters. they are largely too lazy to edumacate themselves as to what a candidate stands for. it's like picking a winning football team according to who has the better uniforms. i assume most of us are all college educated. if you can't figure out that his proposed $800+ billion in government programs and the redistribution of wealth that is required to pay for it all is socialism, i can't help you.

 

Are you okay with government subsidies and tax breaks for businesses? As far as I can tell, these are just redistribution of wealth from the poor to the rich, and yet a lot of people oppose social programs because they are "redistribution of wealth", often forgetting that often times the wealth only got to where it was through exploitative means.

[Guest Cousin Tupelo]

And at the time he gave a very passionate speech opposing the war. Sure, his perspective may have been different if he were in the Senate at the time, but it's not as though he jumped on to the anti-war bandwagon only after deciding to run for President. He was very vocal and prescient about the war since well before the invasion.

 

Wasn't it mentioned earlier in this thread about walking the walk vs. talking the talk ... ?

[myboyblue]

Free pass? Come on.

 

And who cares who he can be associated with? You can associate me with dozens of racist hillbillies but that doesn't make me one.

 

Man, if you run for President, I am going to tear you up!!

[fatheadfred]

i suggest you do your own research starting with his own campaign website. i've already done mine. that's the problem with todays voters. they are largely too lazy to edumacate themselves as to what a candidate stands for.

 

You can't throw out these claims w/o some personal response of how he is a socialist (is that bad?) and other ditties. Then you tell us to go to his website. If you have internalized your spite for him so much, give us a comment.

[MrRain422]

Free pass? Come on.

 

And who cares who he can be associated with? You can associate me with dozens of racist hillbillies but that doesn't make me one. How about looking at something like how his campaign has been run? There were hiccups, sure, but overall Team Obama killed it. If his Presidency is half as organized and intelligent, we're in for a sweet ride.

 

Seriously, his campaign really showed how intelligent and organized he is. People can certainly still disagree with him on policy, but any worries about competence, organization and judgement should be laid to rest by now.

 

Wasn't it mentioned earlier in this thread about walking the walk vs. talking the talk ... ?

 

Okay, but given the fact that Obama was not in the Senate at the time, how else could he have expressed his opposition? Did you want him to sneak in there and vote against it in place of someone else?

[bjorn_skurj]

And at the time he gave a very passionate speech opposing the war. Sure, his perspective may have been different if he were in the Senate at the time, but it's not as though he jumped on to the anti-war bandwagon only after deciding to run for President. He was very vocal and prescient about the war since well before the invasion.

That counts for something, as that was a highly unpopular stance to take at that time. I certainly trust his moral compass, more so than McCain's.

[fatheadfred]

Wasn't it mentioned earlier in this thread about walking the walk vs. talking the talk ... ?

 

I knew someone would say this. Politicians talk, politicians vote. What else? Since he wasn't in office, he talked. Did he have to lay in front of the Saddam statue to avoid its tumble? Is that the action you need?

[uncle wilco]

What a stupid thing to say.

i love insults.

 

i'm starting to remember that anything anti-liberal isn't welcome here. if your not of the same mind you must be an idiot.

 

thanks dannygutters.

[fatheadfred]

i love insults.

 

i'm starting to remember that anything anti-liberal isn't welcome here. if your not of the same mind you must be an idiot.

 

thanks dannygutters.

 

We have shades of socialism in the US. That does not mean we are a 100% socialist country.

[Guest Cousin Tupelo]

He's been pretty explicit about what he wants to change and how.

 

 

 

Please explain.

 

No one really believes that Obama will fix everything or that anything will be easy, other than the small group of crazy followers that every politician has -- most of his supporters understand that our problems are complicated and that there are no guarantees about anything. But his ideas make a whole lot of sense, and I'm happy to take the chance on him rather than continuing with policies that are proven failures, which is what McCain proposes.

 

I truly appreciate your confidence. I hope he can win my trust as well. I've been over his material, including his first book, and I just don't see it. Yet(?).

[MrRain422]

John McCain is a neoplatonist. I have read the literature, and I know it to be true. No, I will not offer facts to back up my wild claim -- it is incumbant upon you to prove me wrong.

[uncle wilco]

Are you okay with government subsidies and tax breaks for businesses? As far as I can tell, these are just redistribution of wealth from the poor to the rich, and yet a lot of people oppose social programs because they are "redistribution of wealth", often forgetting that often times the wealth only got to where it was through exploitative means.

 

there is not enough wealth amonst the "rich" to pay for these programs. therefore the middle class will be picking up the slack. i see higher taxes and lower paychecks in my future, how about you?