New Election 2008 thread

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/...r_next_war.html

[bjorn_skurj]

Castro? Mao?

They say Cuba is nice.

[ikol]

They say Cuba is nice.

 

"They" as in Miamians?

[bjorn_skurj]

"They" as in Miamians?

No, they as in "liberals" and antique car buffs.

[MattZ]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/...r_next_war.html

 

oh man.

[bjorn_skurj]

Sorry, but I do not blame Israel one little bit for doing whatever it can to deny Iran nuclear weapons.

[uncle wilco]

Sorry, but I do not blame Israel one little bit for doing whatever it can to deny Iran nuclear weapons.

me neither.

[explodo]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/...r_next_war.html

Hell yes! War!

[MrRain422]

I don't blame Israel for wanting to prevent Iran from having nuclear weapons. I also don't blame Iran for thinking that they need to have some insurance against Israel attacking them.

[uncle wilco]

I don't blame Israel for wanting to prevent Iran from having nuclear weapons. I also don't blame Iran for thinking that they need to have some insurance against Israel attacking them.

well, for an oil rich country to be dabbling in nukes (for energy purposes?...umm, sure...ok) to begin with and then calling israel a "stinking corpse" and saying they want to "wipe them off the map" is a pretty big red flag. iran put the bullseye on themselves by running off at the mouth. i don't recall israel taunting iran and starting all this.

[uncool2pillow]

Most other countries in the Middle East view the very existence of Israel as a taunt.

[ikol]

I don't blame Israel for wanting to prevent Iran from having nuclear weapons. I also don't blame Iran for thinking that they need to have some insurance against Israel attacking them.

 

Yeah, I guess when you publicly talk about eradicating a nation you should probably have some insurance against them attacking you.

[uncle wilco]

Most other countries in the Middle East view the very existence of Israel as a taunt.

Most other countries in the World view the very existence of the United States as a taunt.

 

screw 'em. they aren't owed an apology for their existence.

[MrRain422]

Yeah, I guess when you publicly talk about eradicating a nation you should probably have some insurance against them attacking you.

 

It was mistranslation that's been discredited several times, uttered by a guy who has no power to go to war, but believe whatever you want.

 

I'm not saying that the Iranian government is belevolent or something -- clearly there's a lot of bad shit going on there. But there's a lot more gray area there than most people are willing to admit. I agree that Iran shouldn't have nuclear weapons, but I haven't heard a compelling argument for why Israel should be allowed to. And considering that the U.S. and Israel have been threatening to bomb Iran for a couple years now, and the U.S. did invade Iran's neighbor and turned it into hellish chaos, well, sorry, but there are a lot of good reasons for Iran to be defensive and more than a little bit fearful. U.S. = good, Iran = bad is just way too simplistic and dishonest.

[MattZ]

It was mistranslation that's been discredited several times, uttered by a guy who has no power to go to war, but believe whatever you want.

 

For the sake of argument, how many people in Iran do you think agree with him? And is that relevant to the discussion?

 

EDIT: let me rephrase that -- assuming he was misquoted (which I am not sure about, but believe you) -- how many people in Iran would love to see the end of Israel?

[bjorn_skurj]

The Iraq invasion, specifically the dramatic difference between how nukeless Iraq and nuked-up North Korea were handled, plays a part in this as well. After Iraq, I would not blame any nation on the outs with Los Estados Unidos one little bit for trying to get nukes.

[MattZ]

Grover Norquist: Obama is "John Kerry with a tan."

 

(seriously)

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmem...st_norquist.php

[IRememberDBoon]

I tend to believe that the government can either stay uninvolved in the economy or they can interfere with it. So, yeah, the president can lead the economy to the degree that he doesn't fuck it up.

 

 

seems to me that president clinton's budget recision package of 93 did wonders for this country and the economy.

[uncool2pillow]

Most other countries in the World view the very existence of the United States as a taunt.

 

screw 'em. they aren't owed an apology for their existence.

Just to clarify, that is most certainly not my POV.

[MrRain422]

For the sake of argument, how many people in Iran do you think agree with him? And is that relevant to the discussion?

 

EDIT: let me rephrase that -- assuming he was misquoted (which I am not sure about, but believe you) -- how many people in Iran would love to see the end of Israel?

 

The mistranslation was that he used a word that specifically referred to the nation's government, but it was translated and spread as if he'd been referring to the nation itself. He basically said he wanted to eliminate Israel's regime, not wipe out the nation.

 

I'm sure many people in Iran do wish to see Israel wiped out. But there's a huge difference between what may be the public's sentiment and what is being said by their leaders. The official government line, especially in areas of foreign relations, are often much more moderate than general public sentiment.

 

The Iraq invasion, specifically the dramatic difference between how nukeless Iraq and nuked-up North Korea were handled, plays a part in this as well. After Iraq, I would not blame any nation on the outs with Los Estados Unidos one little bit for trying to get nukes.

[uncle wilco]

It was mistranslation that's been discredited several times, uttered by a guy who has no power to go to war, but believe whatever you want.

i call bullshit on the mistranslation claim. he's made several long-winded statements regarding israel's impending demise on several occasions. so you are saying he's somehow managed to fool the entire mainstream press, and the whole EU, not to mention israel itself each time he spewed this b.s.? really?

 

you'd think a more credible source besides huffpo (freaking huffpo?...puhleez..ha..ha..) and a few left wing parrot blogs would have uncovered this "mistranslation" and exposed the sinister "invade iran" bush plot that dubya has so ingeniusly concocted.

 

i think ahmadinejad would be in need of a better press agent to be this misunderstood for this long by the entire world...except for the liberal democrats, of course.

 

how come dirtbag heads of state get more sway with the liberal crowd than the opposing political party of our own country? it's pretty pathetic really.

[MrRain422]

The Iraq invasion, specifically the dramatic difference between how nukeless Iraq and nuked-up North Korea were handled, plays a part in this as well. After Iraq, I would not blame any nation on the outs with Los Estados Unidos one little bit for trying to get nukes.

 

Yes, the agreement with North Korea, when contrasted with our policy towards Iran, certainly gives the impression that the United States is more willing to negotiate with governments that do have nuclear weapons than those who don't, so from Iran's perspective, they are definately being told that they should persue nuclear weapons as a bargaining chip with the U.S. It's a shame, because negotiations like those we had with North Korea are the right policy, but when make deals like that right alongside making threats to Iran, hypocricy shines through and it sends exactly the opposite message to Iran than what we would want.

[ikol]

It was mistranslation that's been discredited several times, uttered by a guy who has no power to go to war, but believe whatever you want.

 

That one statement may have been mistranslated, but do you doubt that it's a very popular opinion among Arab nations and their leaders?

 

seems to me that president clinton's budget recision package of 93 did wonders for this country and the economy.

 

Well, that was the only thing that happened in the 90's, so it must have been responsible for the economy.

[MrRain422]

i call bullshit on the mistranslation claim. he's made several long-winded statements regarding israel's impending demise on several occasions. so you are saying he's somehow managed to fool the entire mainstream press, and the whole EU, not to mention israel itself each time he spewed this b.s.? really?

 

I'm talking about one specific statement. Although he's certainly tried to sound tough and has said some truly horrific things about Israel, to my knowledge he has not threatened them overtly.

 

you'd think a more credible source besides huffpo (freaking huffpo?...puhleez..ha..ha..) and a few left wing parrot blogs would have uncovered this "mistranslation" and exposed the sinister "invade iran" bush plot that dubya has so ingeniusly concocted.

 

I certainly didn't cite HuffPo. I don't even read it. I think I've perused that site maybe twice.

 

I'm

i think ahmadinejad would be in need of a better press agent to be this misunderstood for this long by the entire world...except for the liberal democrats, of course.

 

Some of the biggest hawks against Iran are Democrats, so I'm not sure really who you're referring to.

 

how come dirtbag heads of state get more sway with the liberal crowd than the opposing political party of our own country? it's pretty pathetic really.

 

I don't give Ahmadinejad more sway than McCain or anything. I just prefer peaceful solutions and attempts to understand our enemy's position over bombing the hell out of another country that isn't really a threat to us. I think it's worth a shot. Those who are beating the drums of war against Iran are not doing it as a last resort, they'[re insisting on it as a first resort.

[bjorn_skurj]

Yes, the agreement with North Korea, when contrasted with our policy towards Iran, certainly gives the impression that the United States is more willing to negotiate with governments that do have nuclear weapons than those who don't, so from Iran's perspective, they are definately being told that they should persue nuclear weapons as a bargaining chip with the U.S. It's a shame, because negotiations like those we had with North Korea are the right policy, but when make deals like that right alongside making threats to Iran, hypocricy shines through and it sends exactly the opposite message to Iran than what we would want.

Plus, Iran wants to be the dominant power in the Mideast, and needs nukes to do so to counterbalance U.S. power. I don't really believe the people in charge of Iran are so crazy to actually USE nukes on Israel, but if you're Israel, you can't assume that. So, it's a bad scene all around. I foresee diplomacy making a big comeback.