New new election thread

[MattZ]

how this should affect my view as obama as the best candidate representative of my 'centrist views', that's all.

 

I think we're saying the same thing, actually. I am disappointed with Obama's vote, but I will still vote for him. Gladly. I don't expect Obama to be a carbon copy of my beliefs. I am just here arguining about the bill -- not whether Obama is the right guy to vote for. (although I realize that others may be making a different point).

[Tweedling]

Well, I heard McCain has wooden teeth.

How green is that!

[EL the Famous]

Then I am probably very liberal then, because I think the government -- or at least a democratic government -- should protect the least and the last and the lost without unfairly impuning on the privileges of those who can take care of themselves. That means reasonable protection for health, security and defense from those who exploit for their own gains. On the other hand, those who are provided for should be beholden to the government for the protection of that care -- in the scope of being gainfully employed or at least productive commensurate with the care they're given. Very idealistic, obviously, but it was either high school civics or Frank Capra that burned those ideals into my head -- and given a productive society, those aren't bad traits to ascribe to.

 

maybe if have a different definition of liberal then, as i find what you desribed to be completely in line w/ my viewpoint as well...especially the points in bold. my definition of an overly liberal viewpoint, would be what i see to be a complete disregard for those points in bold.

 

i really do believe that there are those out there who genuinely need a great deal of assistance to live and feel those people should be helped, by all of us. where i seem to differ is the perception of how many of those like that are out there and that some of the ideas being thrown around encapsulate a larger part that has little desire to be productive commensurate with the care they're given...but, as i've fessed up to before, i'm slightly jaded as my brother is one of the latter types to the hilt.

 

i guess i'm also a little jaded about it seems sometimes, on here, how anybody that is that upper '10%' or even, sometimes, outwardly secure in their financial status has gotten there by unsavory means at the expense of others. i totally agree there is a growing disparity in income, but (again) i'm less concerned w/ what 'class' i'm labeled in that how i actually see it reflect in my family's quality of life.

 

and i'm rambling.

[JUDE]

maybe if have a different definition of liberal then, as i find what you desribed to be completely in line w/ my viewpoint as well...especially the points in bold. my definition of an overly liberal viewpoint, would be what i see to be a complete disregard for those points in bold.

 

i really do believe that there are those out there who genuinely need a great deal of assistance to live and feel those people should be helped, by all of us. where i seem to differ is the perception of how many of those like that are out there and that some of the ideas being thrown around encapsulate a larger part that has little desire to be productive commensurate with the care they're given...but, as i've fessed up to before, i'm slightly jaded as my brother is one of the latter types to the hilt.

 

i guess i'm also a little jaded about it seems sometimes, on here, how anybody that is that upper '10%' or even, sometimes, outwardly secure in their financial status has gotten there by unsavory means at the expense of others. i totally agree there is a growing disparity in income, but (again) i'm less concerned w/ what 'class' i'm labeled in that how i actually see it reflect in my family's quality of life.

 

and i'm rambling.

 

I've always loved you.

[Good Old Neon]

a solid energy policy and some health care reform is great...i don't feel that a fully socialized approach for everyone is right or even feasible, but we've argued that before.

 

let me flip this, as i wasn't the one who said our entire government no longer takes any our interests into any consideration...while i agree that there is a lot they could be doing better, exactly what aren't they providing YOU right now that is deterring you from being able to provide a decent life for your family? is your quality of life REALLY that bad?

 

and if somebody pipes in w/ 'fuck everybody else', let me head that off. i'm saying empowerment is a two way street...government should never be expected to provide for you, it should be expected to empower you to provide for yourself. i think there a deficiencies on both sides of the fence. i'll worry about FISA after i don't have to worry about our grocery and gas bill.

 

Nothing, my wife and I both contribute to the financial success (or failure) of our family. As with most people at our income level, we struggle, but much of that struggle is directly related to poor financial decisions made early in our relationship

[EL the Famous]

I've always loved you.

 

take it to pm.

 

jnick, see my response to cousin tupelo...i think this is another case of not neccesarily disagreeing w/ your overall point, more so the degree of the issue. i

[Good Old Neon]

take it to pm.

 

jnick, see my response to cousin tupelo...i think this is another case of not neccesarily disagreeing w/ your overall point, more so the degree of the issue. i

[EL the Famous]

I

[sweetheart-mine]

I was referring to the larger picture, the fact that our government, and its representatives are literally being bought and paid for by corporations who have only their own interests in mind

[EL the Famous]

just so we're clear, at no point did i say anybody should look the other way when the government makes itself more answerable to big business than the public. nor did i say, that anybody who is taking them to task is doing so at the expense of taking care of their families.

 

to be fair, i think some people who are priortizing what battles they engage w/ our government on and/or expressing their displeasure in other less 'vocal' ways...are unfairly getting accused of 'looking the other way'. yet, we end up calling them stupid and clueless and tell them their heads are in the sand.

 

i also think that government and big business are no less in bed than they have been for decades prior and the overall infrastructure and how said businesses fit into it w/ us, is much more complex than it's made to be here sometimes. like 'big business' is a tangible enemy. working for a Fortune 50 employer, w/out 'big business' i wouldn't be able to feed my family.

[Guest Jules]

Can someone give me a briefing on the political threads today? I've been away, and I don't know whose posts to arbitrarily dismiss first.

[JUDE]

Once again, I can't fault those nasty corporations or anyone else for that matter for trying to get money/welfare/assistance from the government. As long as the Federal Government takes as much of the GDP as they do things will never change.

 

As they say in business, do what ever get's you closest to the money.

[Guest Jules]

Is Obama the next Jimmy Carter?

[MattZ]

i'm no financial genius, but even i saw that the volatility of an ARM was something i could bite off in any way, shape or form. i smoke, but i cannot fault the cigarette company one iota for any of the reprecussions i may experieince by doing so. could be a bad comparison, but seriously...how could you not see the possbility it could go bad on you before signing up for it?!

 

I think we agree on more than we disagree. Honestly. But I do think you are making the issue a bit too simplistic. You may not be a financial genius, but you are an intelligent guy. Intelligent enough to know that there's something funky about these ARMs. Funky enough to investigate or stay away from. Not all people are intelligent enough to know that -- or to know that the person sitting across the table selling them something really doesn't have their best interests in mind. Even though they say they do.

 

There were plenty of predatory practices that mortgage companies engaged in by misleading people and telling them that the ARM component would be irrelevant because they could always refinance or sell their home or whatever. Or misleading them about where the rates would be going or could be expected to go. Ultimately, the person buying the ARM should be responsible. It's all in the fine print. But it's not like all of the people with bad debt now went in recklessly looking to roll the dice. Plenty of mortgage companies committed the equivalent of fraud by misleading folks about what they were getting. So, sure, people need to take their medicine. But fraud is fraud.

 

Also, as a side point, ARMs are getting a bad rap here. People are not defaulting because of ARMs kicking in at exhorbitant rates. Interest rates are still at historically low rates. People are defaulting because the economy stinks and the housing market is plunging and people can't refinance at the value that they thought they had.

[EL the Famous]

i hear you, but if it wasn't for simple math...i wouldn't disagree i'm making it simplistic. a mortgage will likely be the biggest financial situation one will go into, big enough that if you don't know the ins and outs of what you are getting into and that you could handle it should even the slightest chance the worst case scenario could happen...keep renting.

 

i'm not saying there weren't plenty of predatory lenders out there, doesn't make someone any less responsible for not knowing what they are getting into. to be blunt, anybody not intelligent enough to know what their mortgage entails, shouldn't be seeking a mortgage.

[MattZ]

i hear you, but if it wasn't for simple math...i wouldn't disagree i'm making it simplistic. a mortgage will likely be the biggest financial situation one will go into, big enough that if you don't know the ins and outs of what you are getting into and that you could handle it should even the slightest chance the worst case scenario could happen...keep renting.

 

i'm not saying there weren't plenty of predatory lenders out there, doesn't make someone any less responsible for not knowing what they are getting into. to be blunt, anybody not intelligent enough to know what their mortgage entails, shouldn't be seeking a mortgage.

 

Completely agree. I just think there's blame to go around.

[Guest Cousin Tupelo]

maybe if have a different definition of liberal then, as i find what you desribed to be completely in line w/ my viewpoint as well...especially the points in bold. my definition of an overly liberal viewpoint, would be what i see to be a complete disregard for those points in bold.

 

i really do believe that there are those out there who genuinely need a great deal of assistance to live and feel those people should be helped, by all of us. where i seem to differ is the perception of how many of those like that are out there and that some of the ideas being thrown around encapsulate a larger part that has little desire to be productive commensurate with the care they're given...but, as i've fessed up to before, i'm slightly jaded as my brother is one of the latter types to the hilt.

 

i guess i'm also a little jaded about it seems sometimes, on here, how anybody that is that upper '10%' or even, sometimes, outwardly secure in their financial status has gotten there by unsavory means at the expense of others. i totally agree there is a growing disparity in income, but (again) i'm less concerned w/ what 'class' i'm labeled in that how i actually see it reflect in my family's quality of life.

 

and i'm rambling.

Well what appears to be a growing minority exploit the system are the ones who give opponents the quick excuse to dismiss the benefits of that aid for the majority. It is too easily to see the welfare mothers (makes better lovers) and say, "see, that's why it's broken." But then I see the kids my wife teaches and see parents who have a high school education and the parents barely see the kids because they're both working two jobs.

 

I think everyone has a role to play and each should give in relation to their wealth and position. The upper 10 percent should not give it all away; by the same token, I would readily pay more to the government in exchange for better police enforcement, reliable public services and programs.

 

I have known people who are in the upper 10 percent who do amazing things for the community. And I've seen a lot that make sure the camera's on when they're handing over the check, and then sanitize their hands after they've shaken the recipient's.

 

We suffer our elected officials because the vast majority don't care to get involved, don't care to know the facts, and don't invest anything in their community -- personally, let alone financially. The lobbyists and big money interests control Washington because they've thrown their money at an intellectual vacuum.

 

I wish I had an answer. But you're right that finding scapegoats at either end of the financial spectrum are not the answers.

[sweetheart-mine]

Can someone give me a briefing on the political threads today? I've been away, and I don't know whose posts to arbitrarily dismiss first.

no time or heart for a briefing. i volunteer: dismiss my posts arbitrarily.

[Guest Cousin Tupelo]

i hear you, but if it wasn't for simple math...i wouldn't disagree i'm making it simplistic. a mortgage will likely be the biggest financial situation one will go into, big enough that if you don't know the ins and outs of what you are getting into and that you could handle it should even the slightest chance the worst case scenario could happen...keep renting.

 

i'm not saying there weren't plenty of predatory lenders out there, doesn't make someone any less responsible for not knowing what they are getting into. to be blunt, anybody not intelligent enough to know what their mortgage entails, shouldn't be seeking a mortgage.

There are predatory lenders that take advantage of good willed people who believe the opportunities they're told and suffer consequences. That's one reason I've greatly feared ending social security and putting retirement savings in each person's hands -- most of the people are going to have it taken from them faster than they can sign the check. It's not that they're stupid, it's just there uneducated in the system and there are slicker criminals that can mimick the system to their benefit.

 

On the other hands, there are great social programs -- like the local Habijax corporate partnership. they provide a home for a fraction of its cost, but require the family to put in sweat equity and live by a series of covenants -- even kids have to maintain certain grades, but they're also provided turtoring, after school programs etc. This makes great citizens.

 

For most people, there's little reward for good behavior and often they're penalized or taken advantage of for generosity and good nature.

 

The real question is has anything really changed over the years, or do we just become more/less sensitized to the problems?

[Guest Jules]

i'm not saying there weren't plenty of predatory lenders out there, doesn't make someone any less responsible for not knowing what they are getting into. to be blunt, anybody not intelligent enough to know what their mortgage entails, shouldn't be seeking a mortgage.

Mega dittos, El. Mega dittos.

[Good Old Neon]

And the person attempting to sell it to them, ought to have enough integrity to let them know it. Many lenders and mortgage brokers gave folks mortgages they knew they could not afford - helped them cook the books to make getting a mortgage a possibility.

 

You shouldn

[Guest Jules]

Please, explain your point of view.

Well, the "on any level" was a joke, but to say Obama was already "centrist" is just incorrect. What else is there to explain?

[mountain bed]

I'm not sure I'd want this to happen:

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080711/ap_on_el_pr/veepstakes

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

So I'm guessing that many of you have seen this video of McCain answering a question about health insurance coverage for birth control. It's priceless.

 

Q: I guess her statement was that it was unfair that health-insurance companies cover Viagra but not birth control. Do you have an opinion on that?

 

McCain: (silence)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q8obHEULLg

[mountain bed]

Graham, I saw that this afternoon and it was just about the most uncomfortable I've ever seen a politician look. You could almost literally see the wheels in his mind spinning - "how in the hell do I answer this?"