Can I get something off my chest?

[NewMadridMO]

It hurts me to say this, but Jeff has really lost his edge. No Jay(s)/Leroy/Ken = No one to keep Jeff honest. While their live set is tight and always fun, anyone else sensing this band songwriting prowess is going downhill (while their notiriety and acclaim has increased) ?

 

Just one man's opinion and I don't expect people to agree with me.

[cryptique]

Just one man's opinion and I don't expect people to agree with me.

Good, because this person doesn't.

[mfwahl]

It hurts me to say this, but Jeff has really lost his edge. No Jay(s)/Leroy/Ken = No one to keep Jeff honest. While their live set is tight and always fun, anyone else sensing this band songwriting prowess is going downhill (while their notiriety and acclaim has increased) ?

 

Just one man's opinion and I don't expect people to agree with me.

Musically, they seem to keep getting better. Lyrically, well, there's some things in the newer stuff I like, but I'm a big fan of the Summerteeth through A Ghost is Born more surrealist kind of stuff. I don't think it's a drop in talent. I think Jeff is just at a different place in his life.

 

I'm interested to see where the next album goes. AM through a ghost is born was a great progression and SBS seemed a drop off on from that. Being There, Summerteeth, Yankee Hotel Foxtrot, and a ghost is born are like movies to me in that they're great to put on and just enjoy. Sky Blue Sky is a great album but it doesn't hold my attention or transport me to another place like the other records.

[Sly like a Foxwell]

i think of it all as an evolution. hard to gauge something as subjective as songwriting. one mans up is another ones down. no two times are the same, so the process constatntly changes.

 

 

that said, i feel the songwriting has really matured with the addition of new members, and the input of the group as a whole.

[NewMadridMO]

I'm interested to see where the next album goes. AM through a ghost is born was a great progression and SBS seemed a drop off on from that.

 

That's what I'm getting at. At least "One Wing" sounds pretty good.

[Central Scrutinizer]

i think of it all as an evolution. hard to gauge something as subjective as songwriting. one mans up is another ones down. no two times are the same, so the process constatntly changes.

 

that said, i feel the songwriting has really matured with the addition of new members, and the input of the group as a whole.

 

This isn't going to read as I intend but here goes:

 

I think people get down on SBS because they expected the unexpected -- because in the progression of previous albums, that's what fans had come to expect. But in listening to those albums from hindsight, and reading what Tweedy and the various band incarnations went through, there was the goal of each album of reaching for something, or being pulled by some influence, wanting to take things in a direction. In each case Tweedy had his "enablers," those he learned from used, borrowed from, was led by (in YHF, most would say that was Bennett, but recently I'm convinced it ws more Kotche).

 

People have called SBS "too accessible" like that was a knock. Rather than being an apologist, I think Tweedy's current songwriting is (to use a word becoming cliche) organic. He's not reaching beyond where he's at -- neither technically, artistically or (perhaps most importantly) emotionally. No more migranes, no more "subsets." He's making music with a group of extremely talented guys, apparently without egos (well, except Sansone's "rock star" persona), they're taking the framework of a song, and conjuring it up from among themselves with what's in the room. I would think the greatest rock groups of all time would kill to be in that position. From the audio tape hiss that opens and closes tracks on SBS, I feel totally plugged into an ensemble that's happy in their own skin, happy with where they're at and massively enjoying what they're doing. Tweedy, in a comment on the bonus DVD from SBS, essentially says it's just time to make music. It's not said as an apology. It's said with a tone of relief.

[fineartoflife]

I don't see it is going downhill in songwriting, it just seems that the band laid back a little more, and (quote Tweedy) just played people some motherflippin songs

[cryptique]

Yup.

 

I've been listening to SBS again recently. I liked it when it was released, but these days I'm really enjoying it (with the exception of "What Light," which I never much cared for).

 

I'm not sure what people were expecting, but obviously SBS wasn't it, and it seems that many people have dismissed it accordingly. That's too bad, because there's a lot to love in that album. Is it their strongest? No, I don't think so. But it's a worthy addition to the Wilco catalog.

[uncool2pillow]

Tweedy, in a comment on the bonus DVD from SBS, essentially says it's just time to make music. It's not said as an apology. It's said with a tone of relief.

I think the exact line is something like, "I just wanna sing a bunch of f*$#in' songs." I understand and appreciate that sentiment. I've read a lot of criticisms of the SBS songwriting. I don't get it. I can understand people thinking that the sound is a regression, though I'd disagree w/ that because of the quality of the players.

[WilcoIsLove]

The song writing has definitely become more straighforward and so has their sound but i still love it.. IMO even though the songwriting isnt what it once was, there are plenty of beautiful lines "this is what love is for, to be out of place,gorgeous and alone,face to face"

[Central Scrutinizer]

Yup.

 

I've been listening to SBS again recently. I liked it when it was released, but these days I'm really enjoying it (with the exception of "What Light," which I never much cared for).

 

I'm not sure what people were expecting, but obviously SBS wasn't it, and it seems that many people have dismissed it accordingly. That's too bad, because there's a lot to love in that album. Is it their strongest? No, I don't think so. But it's a worthy addition to the Wilco catalog.

In What Light, he put in a single song what he tried to explain in so many interviews -- and more importantly, it sounds like he has come to terms with letting the songs go and realizing people will do with them whatever they will but that he's no longer responsible for it at that point -- which would be his own advice to those who find fault with SBS.

[mfwahl]

I love SBS. You Are My Face, Impossible Germany, Side with the Seeds, all amazing developments in the songwriting process. Hopefully Nels plays a greater role on the next one. I love that instrumental part of YAMF.

[Central Scrutinizer]

I love SBS. You Are My Face, Impossible Germany, Side with the Seeds, all amazing developments in the songwriting process. Hopefully Nels plays a greater role on the next one. I love that instrumental part of YAMF.

I would have no problem whatsoever with the band coming into Florida Theatre and playing the whole SBS -- along with Let's Not Get Carried Away and The Thanks I Get (with horns).

[you ever seen a ghost?]

SBS is fantastic, though it may not be their most progressive or inventive or even best album.

 

the song-writing is fucking solid, i can't understand how anybody, regardless of whether you like the album or not, can't see that.

 

-justin

[WilcoIsLove]

SBS is fantastic, though it may not be their most progressive or inventive or even best album.

 

the song-writing is fucking solid, i can't understand how anybody, regardless of whether you like the album or not, can't see that.

 

-justin

 

i agree, the album is really fun to sing along to. and some of my favorite lines are on that album. im not gonna lie

on and on and on made me cry. those lyrics were so powerful.

[boo jim boo]

It hurts me to say this, but Jeff has really lost his edge. No Jay(s)/Leroy/Ken = No one to keep Jeff honest. While their live set is tight and always fun, anyone else sensing this band songwriting prowess is going downhill (while their notiriety and acclaim has increased) ?

 

Just one man's opinion and I don't expect people to agree with me.

 

 

100% absolutely agree. so much of SBS seems like Jeff wrote about 40% of a song and then just let the band take it from there. So many lyrics are throwaway (e.g. ALL of Hate it Here or Walken). In the past when working with Jay, it seemed like even though Jay had a lot of input, Jeff really was involved from beginning to end and was really emotionally invested in each track. I just don't get that with SBS.

 

Really, my favorite tweedy songs of the past few years are probably Hey Chicken/The Ruling Class. He really has a vision for them and you can tell he works hard at them. I don't get that with SBS at all.

[giraffo]

This isn't going to read as I intend but here goes:

 

I think people get down on SBS because they expected the unexpected -- because in the progression of previous albums, that's what fans had come to expect. But in listening to those albums from hindsight, and reading what Tweedy and the various band incarnations went through, there was the goal of each album of reaching for something, or being pulled by some influence, wanting to take things in a direction. In each case Tweedy had his "enablers," those he learned from used, borrowed from, was led by (in YHF, most would say that was Bennett, but recently I'm convinced it ws more Kotche).

 

 

for YHF it was Jim O'Rourke-- he created Loose Fur with him around that point, brought him in to play on some songs (I think they said that Poor Places was mostly the three of Loose Fur)-- and had him remix the entire album. Jeff was starting to get into O'Rourke and his music as well as more noisy stuff, where Benett wanted to pull him elsewhere. I'm convinced that if JT never met Jim (or had him get so involved) the album would have been entire entirely different, possibly for the worse. I think that's why Jeff felt Bennett had to go--Summerteeth was his place, where YHF and AGiB was Jeff finding O'Rourke more of an influence.

 

edit: for this next record though, I would like to hear less of this "band in the room business." Wilco is full of musicians who can extort any sort of sound and idea from their instrument, I think it would be interesting to see this utilized...Not "Nels the shredder Cline" but Nels Cline, that guy who can make any sound with his guitar, or Glenn Kotche, the human percussion section, not the drummer. I just think if this current lineup regressed toward the kind of weirdness of their past albums you would have an incredible record, and it still wouldn't sound like any of their past showings. I don't know. I just hope these two new songs have some chance to change over time, or get some kind of post production treatment, because now they seem just...I don't know, musical? just not really interesting to me.

[cryptique]

In What Light, he put in a single song what he tried to explain in so many interviews -- and more importantly, it sounds like he has come to terms with letting the songs go and realizing people will do with them whatever they will but that he's no longer responsible for it at that point -- which would be his own advice to those who find fault with SBS.

Yeah, but I just don't like the song.

[Central Scrutinizer]

for YHF it was Jim O'Rourke-- he created Loose Fur with him around that point, brought him in to play on some songs (I think they said that Poor Places was mostly the three of Loose Fur)-- and had him remix the entire album. Jeff was starting to get into O'Rourke and his music as well as more noisy stuff, where Benett wanted to pull him elsewhere. I'm convinced that if JT never met Jim (or had him get so involved) the album would have been entire entirely different, possibly for the worse. I think that's why Jeff felt Bennett had to go--Summerteeth was his place, where YHF and AGiB was Jeff finding O'Rourke more of an influence.

 

edit: for this next record though, I would like to hear less of this "band in the room business." Wilco is full of musicians who can extort any sort of sound and idea from their instrument, I think it would be interesting to see this utilized...Not "Nels the shredder Cline" but Nels Cline, that guy who can make any sound with his guitar, or Glenn Kotche, the human percussion section, not the drummer. I just think if this current lineup regressed toward the kind of weirdness of their past albums you would have an incredible record, and it still wouldn't sound like any of their past showings. I don't know. I just hope these two new songs have some chance to change over time, or get some kind of post production treatment, because now they seem just...I don't know, musical? just not really interesting to me.

I think Tweedy and O'Rourke would downplay O'Rourke's influence -- they both went to great pains to point out that O'Rourke actually "removed" a great deal of the "noise" from YHF.

 

I think Cline brings a great deal of range to SBS and in all the live recordings I've heard.

 

Yeah, but I just don't like the song.

There are songs that I've hated, but can grant that they're well crafted songs. Just not my cup o' tea. So I get your meaning.

[Doug C]

I like SBS and I loved What Light the first time I heard it, which was when Tweedy opened with it at Raleigh in August of 2006. I was immediately smitten by this never before heard, by me at least, beautiful wonder. I also dug Sky Blue Sky that night, though at the time it was called Lullaby For Rafters and Beams and, Jeff told us, was from the soundtrack of the film Zamboni Man that a friend had made a couple of years before and he just felt like playing it again - little did I know! - (not like I'm telling any of you something that you don't already know).

You have to chuckle at the subjectivity of music and how fans of the same songwriter can hear things so differently. I like that.

[Halsey12]

Well, everything changes and you can't keep doing the same thing forever... but I think that some of the surprises, twists, and turns of Summerteeth and YHF are behind us. AGIB is pretty darn good, but really does miss Jay or some one else to amp it up a bit in parts. I haven't listened to Sky Blue Sky since it came out. It's a good album though. I love Nels, love his playing, love what he does on the songs... but the half of the lyrics just don't appeal to me. Maybe things have become too simplified, and too fun for them that it isn't really a challenge anymore. I know when I hear Radio Cure I just say holy sh*t when it breaks. I think to write a song like that, and make it work, and sail, and surprise, is something special. To write a fun song that ultimately just leads into noise and shredding is probably pretty cool to play for them, but isn't going push them into any new territory but "safe". And that is fine, and they deserve to have fun, but yeah- the edge is very different now. I think boards and conversations like these only serve to further cloud some one's head who is creating. It can be a tough mess to be in, and I certainly understand breaking music down to it's simplest point after all of the stuff they have done and have gone through. But they did raise the bar themselves!

[W(TF)]

I just read the Kot book, finally, which helps put the Wilco fans cycle into perspective. The irony to me is that ST/YHF/AGIB represent the "new" crop of fans (yeah I'm generalizing)...when these came out they alienated all the people who just wanted Tweedy to sing them "Gun" or "Screen Door". The "new" crop are now the old guard, demanding more of the experimental surprises and god forbid he gives us anything too "direct".

 

For me, SBS only has 4 really direct (plain spoken) songs - Either Way, Please Be Patient, Hate It Here, and Walken. That leaves a bunch of songs that you can still read a lot into. It's also one of the group's most accomplished albums musically. I think the vibe is just a bit too laid back and contented for a lot of Wilco fans, but I don't see that as a real knock on SBS, nor a new trend, necessarily. But with the current lineup, sure I think they can do "more" in terms of creative songcrafting.

 

The other thing is, I find ALL the albums much better represented live than on disc....with the possible exception of YHF.

[cryptique]

The other thing is, I find ALL the albums much better represented live than on disc....with the possible exception of YHF.

Seconded.

[Central Scrutinizer]

I just read the Kot book, finally, which helps put the Wilco fans cycle into perspective. The irony to me is that ST/YHF/AGIB represent the "new" crop of fans (yeah I'm generalizing)...when these came out they alienated all the people who just wanted Tweedy to sing them "Gun" or "Screen Door". The "new" crop are now the old guard, demanding more of the experimental surprises and god forbid he gives us anything too "direct".

 

For me, SBS only has 4 really direct (plain spoken) songs - Either Way, Please Be Patient, Hate It Here, and Walken. That leaves a bunch of songs that you can still read a lot into. It's also one of the group's most accomplished albums musically. I think the vibe is just a bit too laid back and contented for a lot of Wilco fans, but I don't see that as a real knock on SBS, nor a new trend, necessarily. But with the current lineup, sure I think they can do "more" in terms of creative songcrafting.

 

The other thing is, I find ALL the albums much better represented live than on disc....with the possible exception of YHF.

I appreciate your points (I've read Kot's book twice and have since read several Tweedy interviews where he bemoans Kot's effort.

 

I think in viewing Hate It Here as straightforward, people fail to realize what a well-crafted R&B tune that is. Tweedy is poetic in how he can find depth and color in simple expressions, and the lyrics of that song manage to bring depth of emotion in pretty austere lyrics.

 

In Hate It Here, "I called your mom and she said you're not there ... and I should take care." Considering the circumstances that is one cold-assed line (mothers can say "fuck off" in the most eloquent ways).

[WilcoIsLove]

I appreciate your points (I've read Kot's book twice and have since read several Tweedy interviews where he bemoans Kot's effort.

 

I think in viewing Hate It Here as straightforward, people fail to realize what a well-crafted R&B tune that is. Tweedy is poetic in how he can find depth and color in simple expressions, and the lyrics of that song manage to bring depth of emotion in pretty austere lyrics.

 

In Hate It Here, "I called your mom and she said you're not there ... and I should take care." Considering the circumstances that is one cold-assed line (mothers can say "fuck off" in the most eloquent ways).

 

i agree about hate it here. that song is somewhat simple lyrically but theres so much emotion in those lines "I try to keep the house nice and neat,do i made my bed ,i changed the sheets, i even learned how to use a washing machine, keeping things clean..doesnt change anything"