Wilco and atheism

[Party @ the Moontower]

I am sorry to hear about your father. I've had to deal with that with parents as well.

 

However, I don't think you know that the soul is impacted by the physical deterioration of the brain. You have lost a means of communicating with it.

 

Einstein proved to scientist that energy and matter are duel expressions of the same universal substance, the energy or vibration of which we are all composed of. This vital life force, or energy, is what keeps us alive as much as the systems in our body. Western medicine treats us like machines and ignores this theory from Einstein, and we seem to be getting sicker. You can only truly heal the body by understanding it's energetic needs.

 

That's why music is so healing.Even a kid listening to what seems to be a hateful rap song is actually healing thru the vibration of the thymus gland (sure to show up as a joke in another thread). Music reaches the soul, so to speak, thru vibration.

 

I have studied some vibrational healing and energy work thru my massage training and have energy clearing sessions done once in awhile, so I believe in the power of owning your own soul. I'm not there yet, but I get it.

 

I have the 2nd most important person in the world to me living with full on dementia. Even this horrible disease has not taken her soul. Even in the worst of times during this horrible experience, I see her the way she was. A funny face she'll make, when she talks like old times, or when her sarcastic funny wit she once graced us with pops out. That's why it's so hard to let go, I know she's in there, the mess of dementia is just getting in the way. I think it's important to surround the person with things that hold their energy. Sounds silly, but to put them in a sterile hospital room drains their deepest vital energy.

[Good Old Neon]

There's only one sure way to gather true evidence, and we all know what that is. I'm not ready to do that field research.

 

I would dispute that, but, I

[uncool2pillow]

And given that zero evidence exists for the existence of an incorporeal soul, outside of religion and certain schools of philosophy, the evidence is strongly in favor of a material basis for our consciousness, soul, or however you choose to define it.

To me, this is the arrogance of humanity. The evidence may be all around us, but we are simply unable to comprehend it. For 10,000+ years, there were fairly advance civilizations that could not determine that the earth revolved around the sun.

 

FAITH is the key to my beliefs. You are welcome to be an atheist based upon the scientific evidence, it's hard to argue with you. You (like Hitchens, Dawkins, etc.) might believe those of us who have faith are deluding ourselves and maybe we are. So what?

 

Edit: I meant to also say that atheists aren't any more or less arrogant than fundamentalists of any religion that claim to have the truth, and the only truth.

[Central Scrutinizer]

I would dispute that, but, I

[Central Scrutinizer]

I meant to also say that atheists aren't any more or less arrogant than fundamentalists of any religion that claim to have the truth, and the only truth.

This is a key point. For to believe in the absence of god, due to lack of proof, is faith -- that proof against it will eventually be found, since it doesn't exist as we know it.

 

Hey, I'm a cherry ghost!

[Good Old Neon]

To me, this is the arrogance of humanity. The evidence may be all around us, but we are simply unable to comprehend it. For 10,000+ years, there were fairly advance civilizations that could not determine that the earth revolved around the sun.

 

FAITH is the key to my beliefs. You are welcome to be an atheist based upon the scientific evidence, it's hard to argue with you. You (like Hitchens, Dawkins, etc.) might believe those of us who have faith are deluding ourselves and maybe we are. So what?

 

Edit: I meant to also say that atheists aren't any more or less arrogant than fundamentalists of any religion that claim to have the truth, and the only truth.

 

To me, quite the opposite is true, the arrogance is to be found in believing we are the center of the universe, that existence was created for us, and that we are god

[Moe_Syzlak]

This is a key point. For to believe in the absence of god, due to lack of proof, is faith -- that proof against it will eventually be found, since it doesn't exist as we know it.

 

Hey, I'm a cherry ghost!

This is not true. The burden of proof is not on the atheist. That would presuppose theism for which there is no support... except faith. It's a circular argument and one which serves little purpose, IMO. If you have faith and it works for you, great! But the absence of faith does not REQUIRE faith. I don't assert that God does NOT exist; I merely do not accept the premise that God DOES exist.

[Central Scrutinizer]

I do not necessarily feel as though you are deluding yourself, we all delude ourselves in myriad ways, and I

[uncool2pillow]

To me, quite the opposite is true, the arrogance is to be found in believing we are the center of the universe, that existence was created for us, and that we are god

[mfwahl]

According to Comedy Central's Lil' Bush, JT is God.

[Central Scrutinizer]

This is not true. The burden of proof is not on the atheist. That would presuppose theism for which there is no support... except faith. It's a circular argument and one which serves little purpose, IMO. If you have faith and it works for you, great! But the absence of faith does not REQUIRE faith. I don't assert that God does NOT exist; I merely do not accept the premise that God DOES exist.

There's no semantics about arguing it, and I think this goes back to Tweedy's songs. I DON'T KNOW. YOU DON'T KNOW. There's only one way to prove there is or isn't a god (or God). And that's by dying and demonstrating your soul, arete, everlasting-gobstopper, etc. ceases to be, or goes on.

 

An athiest believes there is no God. Refusing to accept the premise of g/God is a belief -- one that I wouldn't argue you out of (though within Christianity, I would not be doing my job if I didn't try). By refusing to accept the existing you believe there's an absence.

 

I hope neither of us prove ourself right or wrong any time soon!

[Moe_Syzlak]

There's no semantics about arguing it, and I think this goes back to Tweedy's songs. I DON'T KNOW. YOU DON'T KNOW. There's only one way to prove there is or isn't a god (or God). And that's by dying and demonstrating your soul, arete, everlasting-gobstopper, etc. ceases to be, or goes on.

 

An athiest believes there is no God. Refusing to accept the premise of g/God is a belief -- one that I wouldn't argue you out of (though within Christianity, I would not be doing my job if I didn't try). By refusing to accept the existing you believe there's an absence.

 

I hope neither of us prove ourself right or wrong any time soon!

I do not "believe" there is an absence, since I don't accept the premise. You can call it semantics if you choose. You're right, I don't know and you don't know. The difference is you have faith you know and I don't care about the question.

 

ETA: just to be clear as these sorts of discussions can be misconstrued, I am in NO WAY trying to dissuade you of YOUR belief/faith.

[Wilco Worshipper]

JT is God.

[Central Scrutinizer]

I do not "believe" there is an absence, since I don't accept the premise. You can call it semantics if you choose. You're right, I don't know and you don't know. The difference is you have faith you know and I don't care about the question.

Faith has nothing to do with knowing, at least IMHO. I don't know, but I think as a human it is among the basic questions we ask ourselves. I think if you decide you know, or refuse to acknowledge the question, you cease to grow, or perhaps worse, are an exercise in nihilism.

[sweetheart-mine]

I don't know if being agnostic is the same as being conflicted by organized religion. Your beliefs should -- and can -- be decided outside of that arena.

You can be agnostic about your faith and an athiest of the church!

i'm not sure but i think you lost me. help. do agnostics have faith (except in "anything is possible") and do atheists go to church? no, right? as an agnostic i actually don't feel conflicted about organized religion. there are a lot of reasons why i don't go to church, but they don't cause me conflict -- except for when things are really bad and i wish i believed in god but can't.

 

i sense that jt, when he says something about god, or a god, is thinking of it as a life force that is larger than any one person (or all of humanity, for that matter) and not the god of any of the organized religions. that's just my impression. it's interesting to me how often his lyrics include a line like "but i don't know why" and "i have no idea why this happens." he's sort of a seeker but isn't buying any dogma.

 

his opinion that concerts are what church should be (from sunken treasure, i mean the dvd) to me says a lot.

[Moe_Syzlak]

Faith has nothing to do with knowing, at least IMHO. I don't know, but I think as a human it is among the basic questions we ask ourselves. I think if you decide you know, or refuse to acknowledge the question, you cease to grow, or perhaps worse, are an exercise in nihilism.

Again, you're assuming that faith is central to "the basic questions we ask ourselves." I disagree. I am very curious as to the origins of the universe, what makes us human, what makes me me and you you, etc. I just don't start from the premise that it is a higher power. I see no reason to. You have your faith that that is where you should begin and that is fine. But that is hardly a universal truism and one for which there is a requirement of disbelief.

[mfwahl]

[Central Scrutinizer]

i'm not sure but i think you lost me. help. do agnostics have faith (except in "anything is possible") and do atheists go to church? no, right? as an agnostic i actually don't feel conflicted about organized religion. there are a lot of reasons why i don't go to church, but they don't cause me conflict -- except for when things are really bad and i wish i believed in god but can't.

 

i sense that jt, when he says something about god, or a god, is thinking of it as a life force that is larger than any one person (or all of humanity, for that matter) and not the god of any of the organized religions. that's just my impression. it's interesting to me how often his lyrics include a line like "but i don't know why" and "i have no idea why this happens." he's sort of a seeker but isn't buying any dogma.

 

his opinion that concerts are what church should be (from sunken treasure, i mean the dvd) to me says a lot.

Well my last line was just a joke. Agnostics, I assume, have doubts, or are conflicted. And I do believe there are athiests within the church (just as there are Jews who are not religious).

 

I think organized religious causes conflicts with people's exploration of faith because, for better or worse, they believe "if being faithful means that I want no part of it/can't live up to that," or otherwise allow actions within the church or its community to affect its beliefs. Teachings of organized religions can certainly cloud logic or judgment of faith (such as preaching that gays deserve to die of AIDS). So much conflicts and confuses the "who are we and why are we here questions."

 

That is a great comment from Sunken Treasure -- doesn't he say it right after singing "Satan Your Kingdom Must Come Down"?

 

There is a love and sense of community bigger than just the sense of having to live together than to survive. That drives you to ask the questions; your life experiences can either drive you on or drive you away from that pursuit.

[Central Scrutinizer]

Again, you're assuming that faith is central to "the basic questions we ask ourselves." I disagree. I am very curious as to the origins of the universe, what makes us human, what makes me me and you you, etc. I just don't start from the premise that it is a higher power. I see no reason to. You have your faith that that is where you should begin and that is fine. But that is hardly a universal truism and one for which there is a requirement of disbelief.

I'm sorry, but I know what you're saying and I'm afraid you're not understanding what I'm saying ("I know you are but what am I?" -- Peewee).

 

I don't start from the premise that, "there's a God, now how do I prove it?" I can't empirically accept what a black hole looks like -- or even that there is one -- even if a team of scientists patiently explain it to me. It would make sense, but I have no more proof than if someone tells me there's a guy with a big white beard who sounds like Morgan Freeman who made everything thus and so. I can't see that either. And I can't spill one of Tweedy's songs into a test tube and boil off everything but the essence of why I love that song. It's an empty tube. Where did it go? I don't know.

 

:worship :worship

:worship :worship

:worship :worship

[sweetheart-mine]

Well my last line was just a joke. Agnostics, I assume, have doubts, or are conflicted. And I do believe there are athiests within the church (just as there are Jews who are not religious).

 

I think organized religious causes conflicts with people's exploration of faith because, for better or worse, they believe "if being faithful means that I want no part of it/can't live up to that," or otherwise allow actions within the church or its community to affect its beliefs. Teachings of organized religions can certainly cloud logic or judgment of faith (such as preaching that gays deserve to die of AIDS). So much conflicts and confuses the "who are we and why are we here questions."

 

That is a great comment from Sunken Treasure -- doesn't he say it right after singing "Satan Your Kingdom Must Come Down"?

 

There is a love and sense of community bigger than just the sense of having to live together than to survive. That drives you to ask the questions; your life experiences can either drive you on or drive you away from that pursuit.

yes, that's when he says it. actually, the first thing he says after singing that is something like "those songs are all so fearful."

 

agnostics doubt many things, that is for sure. i also think that some kind of faith is not something many agnostics pursue. we're living the questions.

[Wilco Worshipper]

You know I'm TOTALLY stealing that for my MySpace, right?!?

[sweetheart-mine]

You know I'm TOTALLY stealing that for my MySpace, right?!?

you know, jeff looks a little like earl in "saving grace" in that picture!

[Central Scrutinizer]

yes, that's when he says it. actually, the first thing he says after singing that is something like "those songs are all so fearful."

 

agnostics doubt many things, that is for sure. i also think that some kind of faith is not something many agnostics pursue. we're living the questions.

One question we live is, "Why would you wanna live in this world?"

[Wilco Worshipper]

you know, jeff looks a little like earl in "saving grace" in that picture!

You're SOOO right!!!

[Moe_Syzlak]

Maybe we are just missing each other's point here. It CAN be a tricky discussion. What I'm saying is when you consider whether or not there are black holes, you accept a premise - however specious it may be to you -- that black holes may, in fact, exist. You may reach a conclusion that they do exist or they don't -- based on evidence, faith, trust in family that raised you to believe they exist.... whatever. BUT, once you accept the premise that black holes may or may not exist, you then weigh the evidence and the burden of proof rests with those that wish to persuade you to believe in black holes -- even if that person is you. If I told you purple holes exist only in my office closet but they can't be detected by any means known to humans, would you have any reason to accept the premise until I provided you at least SOME evidence? This is atheism. It is not -- at least for me -- the active disbelief in god(s). It is merely the position that I see no reason to accept the premise.