Christ for President in Religulous

[M. (hristine]

I hope at least some of you will read this and think about it.

And then what? Relinquish spiritual practice because human beings are masters at rationalization?

 

What you describe throughout that post is about power and fear. Not spiritual practice. Doesn't matter what name gets slapped on it.

[kwall]

And then what? Relinquish spiritual practice because human beings are masters at rationalization?

 

What you describe throughout that post is about power and fear. Not spiritual practice. Doesn't matter what name gets slapped on it.

[Good Old Neon]

And then what? Relinquish spiritual practice because human beings are masters at rationalization?

 

What you describe throughout that post is about power and fear. Not spiritual practice. Doesn't matter what name gets slapped on it.

 

That

[M. (hristine]

I'm not trying to convince anyone to practice as I do. It's against my religion.

 

The premise that our lack of compassion for one another arises out of religious belief is incorrect. As much incorrect to say that our lack of compassion for one another arises out of national borders, skin color, sexual preference or whether we root for Michigan or Ohio State. Those separations are pretend. They change.

 

You can beat the drum all day about all the ills that have been foisted upon humanity by religion, and each time I will say that religion is not the genesis. The genesis is power and fear.

[Guest Jules]

I'm glad everyone can come to an agreement here.

[austrya]

I'm not trying to convince anyone to practice as I do. It's against my religion.

 

The premise that our lack of compassion for one another arises out of religious belief is incorrect. As much incorrect to say that our lack of compassion for one another arises out of national borders, skin color, sexual preference or whether we root for Michigan or Ohio State. Those separations are pretend. They change.

 

You can beat the drum all day about all the ills that have been foisted upon humanity by religion, and each time I will say that religion is not the genesis. The genesis is power and fear.

 

I like this.

 

This is wrong on so many levels:

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

Sorry for mixing you up with somebody else, bobbob. At any rate, orchestra's got the right idea. I presented numerous examples of how religion poisons thought in that other thread, ranging from the myriad ways it inspires violence and war, to the knack it has for stifling free inquiry at even the most basic and unconscious level.

 

You might argue that you're protecting only moderates with your well-intentioned tolerance, and that may seem fine to many on the surface; moderates aren't as constrained in their beliefs as fundamentalists, but they nonetheless enable the destructive fantasies of, say, hardcore Christianity and radicalized Islam to tear a rather horrifying swath through 21st Century reality by providing cover for the beliefs of their adherents. "What they believe is valid," argues the moderate brainlessly, "it's simply a rigid, authoritarian version of the word of god. Times change, and so too must the unchanging law of god. We just don't say it like that, of course!" Among non-believers, the "permissive atheist" provides the same kind of cover for the fundamentalist. If you're going to call yourself an atheist, the very least you can do, in my opinion, is call religion on the carpet to atone for its "sins."

 

Religion does damage. Individual beliefs in unprovable nonsense have a way of becoming collective beliefs in unprovable nonsense. One has a way of becoming many. This is how cults tend to function, regardless of their size or tax-exempt status. Unprovable nonsense has a way of wanting to indoctrinate, coerce and otherwise assert its wild truth claims pertaining to nothing less than the entire fucking universe. We have seen this again and again and again and again throughout our history. Empires frequently cite divine providence as a justifiable cause when supporting their state-building enterprises.

 

Sure, there are more land claims in the Middle East than you can shake a stick at, but most parties agree that they are there according to the will of god. Muslims resent Jews and have done so for centuries. I don't think anybody can accuse me of tarring with a broad brush when I say that many in the Middle East would not think twice before visiting bodily harm on a Jew (or Christian, for that matter). We see this frequently with incursions into Israel's borders, usually involving bullets and rockets. Meanwhile, Jews make assertive, often callous land-grabs based on little more than mythology dating to the Old Testament. Top elected politicians in the modern democratic state of Israel refer to Palestinians as being "no better than dogs." The president of Iran, meanwhile, denies that the Holocaust ever happened and refers to Israel as a "rotting corpse" while threatening to erase it from existence with absolutely stunning regularity. Crazy, crazy motherfucking shit happens in the name of religion. We need not look back to the Crusades to find further examples of this insane behaviour. We see other struggles around the world even today, pathetic and tragic as that statement surely is. The Sunni/Shia split. The sinister influence of Islam in Europe. India and Pakistan. There can be no religious solutions to religious problems. (I would apologize for appearing to "pick on" Islam in these examples if I gave a flying fucking shit about offending Muhammed, PBUH. Fortunately, I do not.)

 

Since this thread is about a Larry Charles film, does anybody remember the astonishing scene in Borat during which an American politician suggests that Jews will not ascend to Heaven because they haven't accepted Jesus Christ as their personal saviour? It's a rather disquieting moment, and it's an interesting proof of how even "nice, upstanding" folks can be polluted by their religion into thinking less of people who do not subscribe to their patently ridiculous beliefs. This is how sinister religious thought truly is, and it's a fine illustration of how holy war is perhaps not even the most appalling "sin" committed in the name of religion. Religion is far from innocuous even among those who do not engage in violence or acts of war.

 

For example, Bible-based arguments abound which prohibit sex education from being taught in a transparent, shameless and comprehensive fashion even in many North American schools. Instead of teaching the Third World to embrace safe sex, the church has encouraged a veritable holocaust of poverty, starvation and AIDS, all for the sake of a bunch of phoney-baloney bullshit that is not only manifestly untrue, but which does us no good whatsoever.

 

The resurgence of polio in North Africa and the Middle East also owes a tremendous debt to religion. Last year in Pakistan, a senior government official was killed when he was returning from a tribal council to convince people to immunize their children against the disease. Armed "prayer leaders" warned the politician's entourage against dispelling local misconceptions about the vaccine's benefits. These same men had earlier informed the tribe that the government was there only to spread "Western vulgarity," and that the polio vaccine would in fact do them harm. I wish I could say that this sort of calamity were some kind of fluke, but the fact of the matter is that this sort of thing has been happening in Africa for years. And polio is gaining tremendous ground in this part of the world. Thanks again, religion! For nothing at all. (On-topic! I'd like to thank religion for NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING at all.)

 

I personally stand to benefit from an economy the size of the United States experimenting in an unhindered fashion with stem cell research. So do millions more. I like the idea of millions and millions of madmen not wanting to see you, bobbob, as well as I, as symbols of "Western decadence" that must be destroyed. I don't like it when fat, stupid, useless, stupid, disgusting, stupid, inhuman, stupid, cunt-for-brains assholes like Falwell and Robertson blame our gay friends for 9/11. I don't like it when sexually ambiguous teens are murdered with astounding ferocity because their PERCEIVED lifestyle is "against god."

 

You cannot deny that religion is the greatest poison of all fucking time. I simply don't understand how you can call yourself an atheist, a materialist, or a secular humanist and pretend that you don't observe archaic religious thought poisoning the living fuck out of our planet on an almost hourly basis. Please do not deny deny this.

I'm finished with this subject on this forum. I hope at least some of you will read this and think about it.

The most important sentence in the great wall of text

[mountain bed]

As much incorrect to say that our lack of compassion for one another arises out of national borders, skin color, sexual preference or whether we root for Michigan or Ohio State.

Aww c'mon MChris. Those people will all burn in hell - everyone knows the Fightin' Irish is GOD'S TEAM.

[M. (hristine]

Uh oh.

[TheMaker]

Those separations are pretend. They change.

 

Just like religion. Heh.

 

(I'd leave, but you all just seem to enjoy my participation so much...)

[Good Old Neon]

I'm not trying to convince anyone to practice as I do. It's against my religion.

 

The premise that our lack of compassion for one another arises out of religious belief is incorrect. As much incorrect to say that our lack of compassion for one another arises out of national borders, skin color, sexual preference or whether we root for Michigan or Ohio State. Those separations are pretend. They change.

 

You can beat the drum all day about all the ills that have been foisted upon humanity by religion, and each time I will say that religion is not the genesis. The genesis is power and fear.

 

I do not believe our lack of compassion is the child of religion, any more than I believe religion gave birth to compassion.

 

To a large extent I agree, but religion is in the unique (and, I would add, unparalled) position of justifying and perpetuating (and, in many cases, simply creating out of thin air) those fears and abuses of power

[TheMaker]

That's exactly right. Religion is the most successful mitigating factor ever to prop up warfare and empire-building alike.

 

And look, M.Christine, I understand your argument, but I maintain that it's a naive one. The relationship between belief and lifestyle is inextricable in so many ways, which is something I've been attempting to prove through example in at least two threads involving this particular clutch of themes. Again, you have a nice, happy, tolerant view of religion and spirituality, but it does not address several stumbling blocks that represent very real problems for the human race.

 

I am offended to my very core by the absurd truth claims made by every organized religion, but even if one were to forgo appeals to reason and take it for granted ("on faith," if you will) that god exists, one is still left with a host of unsolvable problems involving the incompatible truth claims made by each of the world's religions. Not only that, scripture is riddled with holes that prevent it from living up to its own deluded opinion of itself. Jesus Christ was without sin, apparently, even though he was prone to callous acts of brutishness in many of the bible's books, up to and including several acts of murder. The bible is purported to be the inerrant word of god, and yet its lessons are at once morally appalling and and anchored two thousand years in the past. The world according to the bible is localized entirely in the Middle East, with no mentions of any flora or fauna from then-undiscovered places like Australia or South America, let alone once-dominant species that had fallen to extinction.

 

The concept of revelation is simply beyond the pale. Why does god always seem to manifest himself only to illiterate, simple men who can scarcely even fulfill his wishes? Why can't people simply read the Koran and laugh their fucking asses off at how totally shameless it is? The thing is basically wholesale plagiarism, nicking plot elements and even entire verses from the Old Testament, the Torah, and a number of other sources. "Dammit, how come Arabs haven't had a chance to chat one-on-one with god yet? When we gonna get our turn? Let's write our own crazy fucking creation myth!" And so they did, the historical and literary record tells us. The transparency of these petty, childish texts is appallingly obvious when they are examined in their proper context.

 

There is nothing about religion that is honest, or even "truthy," to use one of my favourite neologisms. But the reason I'm dredging up all of these facts is not to further decimate the validity of religion (this is something that anybody could do without expending any effort whatsoever), although that's certainly a ball on which one of my eyes is always fixed, but rather to illustrate the ridiculous lengths the faithful are willing to go in order to protect the well-intentioned delusions of their ancient ancestors. In this thread, we've seen people attempt to box me by casting doubt on the fact that Jesus is a killer and a thief according to the bible. We've seen people protect the morally sound aspects of religion that only scrupulous editing has been able to provide and promote. You can argue 'til you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change a number of important realities.

 

There is no god, no Jesus, and no Moses; the historical record indicates that Muhammed probably lived, but he was certainly little more than a delusional sand-eater from naive circumstances who was prone to being wracked by seizures. All of this stuff is pure and absolute bunkum. Feel free to trek up Ararat every year 'til the sun falls off the fucking chair, you aren't going to find any Ark. There is no Ark. There is no reason to believe that there ever was an Ark. Believing that the Ark is a metaphor of some kind is fucking stupid. I think we all recognize these truths on some level; even those of us who are unwilling to admit them.

 

And so the operative question is not "in what way do the more mild strains of a rabid delusion pose a threat to my lifestyle?" The operative question is "why should we make excuses for even a mild strain of a rabid delusion, especially when the very real possibility of inflammation always exists?" It's akin to making friends with a petty thief and defending him by suggesting that, hey, at least he ain't a murderer! Or it's like celebrating, or perhaps merely tolerating, a benign tumour on the grounds that it isn't an immediate, malignant threat. It's simply absurd.

 

1) Religion is a lie at worst and a placebo at best.

2) Religion therefore offers nothing.

3) I will not tolerate the tolerance of religion. This will never change.

[M. (hristine]

You seem kind of cranky.

[TheMaker]

You seem kind of naive.

[Spawn's dad]

I call bullshit.

 

good call.

[M. (hristine]

Perhaps.

I simply find it more naive to believe that removing religion from human history would also eliminate the behavior that you are railing against.

[austrya]

Call me naive, but I'm pretty darn happy with my life. Religion included.

[JUDE]

When Jesus and I are drinking beer and playing lawn jarts in heaven, I'm going to laugh at all you non-believers burning in the fiery pits of hell.

[Good Old Neon]

When Jesus and I are drinking beer and playing lawn jarts in heaven, I'm going to laugh at all you non-believers burning in the fiery pits of hell.

 

Lawn darts will find no purchase in a billowy cloud.

 

Oh, and enjoy your Pat Boone while you're up there - - the rest of us will be rocking out in hell (if also sweating profusely).

[JUDE]

Lawn darts will find no purchase in a billowy cloud.

 

Oh, and enjoy your Pat Boone while you're up there - - the rest of us will be rocking out in hell (if also sweating profusely).

 

 

Don't forget Stryper.

[austrya]

Don't forget Stryper.

 

Don't we get Pedro the Lion too?

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

Don't we get Pedro the Lion too?

 

 

And Jars of Clay?

 

And I'm betting on Dylan too?

 

(Why on earth am I doing this? Does this post make my butt look big?)

[markosis]

I'd love to add something to the conversation, but I've discovered that trying to have a rational argument with a hardline athiest is about as futile as having a rational argument with a hardline anything (Christian/hip-hop fan/NRA member etc).

[Good Old Neon]

Dylan

[Panther]

regarding The Makers last long reply , I don't disagree with anything you said about the lies and deciet in religion but and this is a big one your argument is to modern to make sense. You have to account history. Are you aware of the changes that occured in christianity when the Holy roman empire took over, if not I suggest you do some readings. A breif example are the meetings that were held by Roman Emperor Constantine where they made their edit of the bible and decided from now on these stories will be taught literally. That is a fact , but for you to say there is no god no jesus no moses just sounds stupid, honestly. Historicaly you are correct their is no records of a historical Moses but I watched a great documentry recently that gave accurate timelines and similar names to many biblical characters taht would explain where they all come from, it could be offbase but your certanty is ignorant of ancient mysteries that we do not understand.

 

And again when you say no god do you also mean no GOD? Because a god or gods is a deity but GOD is the idea of a creator and that isn't realy something that can be compared to or even argued about as there is no other equvilant idea to compare it with, so thanks but no thanks I think I'll decide that one on my one through my own life's journey and probably in the next one to(how unscientific I belive in a next life omg).