Congrats to President-Elect OBAMA

[bleedorange]

I'm fixated on a number so I can figure out how much I need to pay so I can live my life without being a "bad guy" who doesn't want to do the right thing because he questions the system. It also helps for budgeting purposes since taxes supersede everything else.

 

You will always be a bad guy because you make more money than someone else. Isn't that what the Democrats teach us?*

 

 

 

 

 

 

* Yes, this is sarcasm and hyperbole (to a certain extent )

[Central Scrutinizer]

Since campaigning is nothing more than sound bites and 30-second ads, overly simplistic phrases are pretty much the order of the day. I know that when I argue about increasing tax rates it doesn't stem from the notion that all taxes are evil or unnecessary. I'm not an anarchist.

 

But, no, philosophically, I don't think my rates should be increased and then have the government turn around and write a check to someone else who pays little to no tax in the form of a "tax refund."

 

We have in place in this country plenty of subsistence/need programs for people who need the help. Yet with an influx of immigrants, both legal and illegal, these programs never seem to be enough. So we're told we need to sacrifice and provide more for these people. Well, I have to admit, at a certain point, I have to start looking out for myself and my family. It is not a desire of mine to see everyone in the same boat. I want the opportunity to improve life for myself. I also don't believe that life and economics is a zero-sum game.

 

I guess that just makes me a selfish conservative.

Obama is not suggesting this. He merely wants to rollback the tax benefit given to those earning $250K-plus back to what it was originally.

 

As far as the "plenty of programs" and blaming it on "immigrants" I'd say you've been inhaling too many of those sound bytes. Programs are not adequate, nor are they effective nor uniform. Economies of scale would be the best approach. Again, these broad brush stereotypes of welfare mothers and illegal immigrants (who advance themselves by working two and three jobs, doing things most people feel too demeaning) is a grand excuse to do absolutely nothing. Unless that is, you can get a picture of yourself handing a check over to one of these programs o' plenty. Then that plays nice for boosting business/getting that promotion/chairing that United Way committee/make me a hero in the church.

 

Finally, someone get's it.

There's that example you asked me for!!

[MattZ]

So you think a combine rate of 65% is reasonable?

 

I dont know what's reasonable, but I know that's what it costs to live in NYC (except I bumped up the capital gains/dividend rate to solve for the fact that we pay state AND city taxes). And that's under Bush. So, if that's not reasonable, would you propose cutting more than the Bush cuts?

 

I understand what you are trying to do by getting the discussion to focus on numbers. Too often these discussions are hypothetical without numbers. But can we really have a productive discussion around federal income tax rates being 35% instead of 39%? Would you really be happy if I "lowered" your combined rate to 62% from 65%?

 

What number do you think is fair, on a combined level, given that you acknowledge that we all have to pay our fair share, but we just differ on what fair is?

[bjorn_skurj]

I'm fixated on a number so I can figure out how much I need to pay so I can live my life without being a "bad guy" who doesn't want to do the right thing because he questions the system. It also helps for budgeting purposes since taxes supersede everything else.

 

 

 

 

 

So you think a combine rate of 65% is reasonable?

It is, because New York is so freaking awesome.

[Central Scrutinizer]

I found out later this morning that four other people in my office got tix too.

 

 

This is gonna be GREAT!

 

 

Karl Rove: "May I have 10,000 marbles please?"

[Moe_Syzlak]

No bad guy. I would benefit more from the McCain tax plan than the Obama tax plan (at least in the short term). But I believe we have dug ourselves a hole and we need to dig out of it. I'd rather pay more in taxes now than pass it on to my (future) children or see the dollar's value decrease to a point where my relative income is less anyway. That's all. And historically we know that no matter who is on office, they won't spend significantly less. So, while I'm with you that I'd like to see less wasteful spending, I don't think it is realistic to expect it to magically happen. So hold your elected officials responsible, by all means, but in the meantime, I will continue to recognize that less revenue won't be of a long term benefit to me or anyone else who plans to stay in the U.S. I don't think you are selfish, just niave.

[Central Scrutinizer]

I'm fixated on a number so I can figure out how much I need to pay so I can live my life without being a "bad guy" who doesn't want to do the right thing because he questions the system. It also helps for budgeting purposes since taxes supersede everything else.

 

So you think a combine rate of 65% is reasonable?

Given that a grand portion of the 35% will be eliminated through deductions and 20% disappears this year due to the economy, and most other years through claimed losses, that is about what Joe 6-pack pay, so that's fair.

[John Smith]

Here are a few of my ideas of waste in tax spending

[John Smith]

35% federal income tax

10% local tax

20% capital gains tax/dividend tax

 

EDIT: and how about 8 3/4 sales tax.

 

Please note that the Cap Gain tax is not on top oof the other taxes. Income is taxed at one level...35% for those whose taxable income is roughly $350K. Capital gains also range from 5% to 15% depending ont heh holding period and the taxpayers bracket.

 

Also state and local taxes as are deductible on the fed return as are real estate and sales taxes so they shield a portion of yoru income from federal tax.

[MattZ]

Please note that the Cap Gain tax is not on top oof the other taxes. Income is taxed at one level...35% for those whose taxable income is roughly $350K. Capital gains also range from 5% to 15% depending ont heh holding period and the taxpayers bracket.

 

Sure. You also cant add up 35+10+20 and say that the combined rate is 65%. This entire discussion is silly.

[JUDE]

I dont know what's reasonable, but I know that's what it costs to live in NYC (except I bumped up the capital gains/dividend rate to solve for the fact that we pay state AND city taxes). And that's under Bush. So, if that's not reasonable, would you propose cutting more than the Bush cuts?

 

I understand what you are trying to do by getting the discussion to focus on numbers. Too often these discussions are hypothetical without numbers. But can we really have a productive discussion around federal income tax rates being 35% instead of 39%? Would you really be happy if I "lowered" your combined rate to 62% from 65%?

 

What number do you think is fair, on a combined level, given that you acknowledge that we all have to pay our fair share, but we just differ on what fair is?

 

I don't know, I just know I can budget and live my life within a set of parameters, is it so bad to expect the governmet to do the same?

 

No bad guy. I would benefit more from the McCain tax plan than the Obama tax plan (at least in the short term). But I believe we have dug ourselves a hole and we need to dig out of it. I'd rather pay more in taxes now than pass it on to my (future) children or see the dollar's value decrease to a point where my relative income is less anyway. That's all. And historically we know that no matter who is on office, they won't spend significantly less. So, while I'm with you that I'd like to see less wasteful spending, I don't think it is realistic to expect it to magically happen. So hold your elected officials responsible, by all means, but in the meantime, I will continue to recognize that less revenue won't be of a long term benefit to me or anyone else who plans to stay in the U.S. I don't think you are selfish, just niave.

 

So I should just shut up and pay my taxes then?

 

 

Given that a grand portion of the 35% will be eliminated through deductions and 20% disappears this year due to the economy, and most other years through claimed losses, that is about what Joe 6-pack pay, so that's fair.

 

And those making over 250K annually who are worth their capitalist salt will find every way to take advantage of this exact situation to negate any of the tax rhetoric that has been spewed in the last six months.

[Central Scrutinizer]

And those making over 250K annually who are worth their capitalist salt will find every way to take advantage of this exact situation to negate any of the tax rhetoric that has been spewed in the last six months.

So, instead of being socialists, they're fascists!

[Edie]

The *very* conservative Florida Times-Union (Jacksonville's only daily newspaper) had no coverage on the election on its front page (oh, by the way, Obama is having a rally this morning in Jacksonville at the colliseum with about 20K expected) is a scare headline "No police at polling places.

 

In a county where 27K black votes "disappeared" in 2000, the Times-Union warns black voters there will be no one at the polls to help them, and reminds the uneducated whites that McCain is targeting in swing states to come down and stir up some trouble.

 

This is disgusting.

What's everyone doing for election night? We're hosting a small get together. Here's the invite:

 

My husband and I have a bottle of Veuve Cliquot on ice for the moment they call the race for Obama. If he loses, we have everything else in the well-stocked liquor cabinet.

 

The eliticism on this board makes me puke.

 

It's elitism, dude

 

I also have a very unscientific theory that there might just actually be less abortions if we can elect a president who will improve healthcare, improve education, improve the economy, improve morale overall.

 

QFT. Obama has stated that he is not "pro-abortion". I don't think that any "pro-abortion" people like abortions and want more of them. Like austrya points out, his other policies could lead to fewer of them.

[Sir Stewart]

This is disgusting.

 

The disembowelment of the English language in that post, you mean? Agreed.

[MattZ]

I don't know, I just know I can budget and live my life within a set of parameters, is it so bad to expect the governmet to do the same?

 

No one is disagreeing with you. We are all lamenting the same reality. With government spending going up, no matter if McCain or Obama is elected, that means there's a disconnect and raising taxes is the only way to close the gap. "Cutting wasteful government spending" is like being in favor of "education reform" and "renewable energy." They're just talking points. Politicians say it all the time.

[John Smith]

I don't know, I just know I can budget and live my life within a set of parameters, is it so bad to expect the governmet to do the same?

 

This is what absolutely has to change. I think we agree here. The problem is that this situation went to shit over the last eight years under the guidance of who...?

 

Personally I would like to see our around the world adventurism end and the savings used to pay down our debt. Both candidates are wrong for proposing tax cuts now, because the cuts will only worsen the situation. Also it has already been proven twice that 1) trickle down does nto actually work and 2) tax cuts do not pay for themselves.

[EL the Famous]

I don't know, I just know I can budget and live my life within a set of parameters, is it so bad to expect the governmet to do the same?

 

of course not, but as much as i love you...after poudning everybody else for hard numbers, that response was kind of weaksauce. to be fair, there is a part of me that does challenge to what level one should be asked to be 'their brother's keeper' before you become more of an enabler than a helping hand. however, it really vexes me when that turns into that i'm asking for a handout for either myself or anybody else in support of this tax plan. jude isn't saying that, but my aforementioned captialist pals do. really, the whole thing is greyer than that...but, you can't campaign effectively w/out absolutes, for the soundbites and chain emails.

[LouieB]

Nobody is saying that. In fact, the Bush administration has been terribly wasteful and has spent way too much. Bush is a Republican, but in the economic sense, he's no conservative.

 

Of course, no one on the GOP or Democratic ticket is.

Did I forget to indicate I was being sarcastic??

 

The fact remains that the Bush tax plan expires in two years. Extending it is ridiculous. In any event Congress has to pass something sometime and whether Obama's ideas come to pass or not remains to be seen.

 

We need Barack Obama for many other reasons (hey.....everyone...we still have a war in Iraq....)

 

LouieB

[myboyblue]

The part that really seems to get overlooked by many on the right is how the "tax increases" are rolled out. There is a tax cut proposed for those under $250k and it is really quite similar to today's standards until you get north of $600k. So there is a tax decrease for most people in the country.

 

Further, cutting taxes would be fiscally irresponsible based on the deficit that Bush and company ran up like drunken sailors.

 

I agree with Jude, and most, that wasteful spending needs to be carefully analyzed and brought down. We may all disagree on which programs get funded etc. but we all agree that government spending is out of control.

 

And back to the Obama/McCain piece, I may personally do better under McCain from an income tax perspective. I don't feel that from an overall stock market standpoint, that I would do better. I may make 1% less in income but I'm confident that I can more than make up for it if the overall market improves.

[EL the Famous]

And back to the Obama/McCain piece, I may personally do better under McCain from an income tax perspective. I don't feel that from an overall stock market standpoint, that I would do better. I may make 1% less in income but I'm confident that I can more than make up for it if the overall market improves.

 

amen. that never seems to get brought up as much as one would think.

[JUDE]

of course not, but as much as i love you...after poudning everybody else for hard numbers, that response was kind of weaksauce. to be fair, there is a part of me that does challenge to what level one should be asked to be 'their brother's keeper' before you become more of an enabler than a helping hand. however, it really vexes me when that turns into that i'm asking for a handout for either myself or anybody else in support of this tax plan. jude isn't saying that, but my aforementioned captialist pals do. really, the whole thing is greyer than that...but, you can't campaign effectively w/out absolutes, for the soundbites and chain emails.

 

Maybe it was weak, but I think it

[Central Scrutinizer]

The disembowelment of the English language in that post, you mean? Agreed.

I apologize for that. I shouldn't have typed angry.

[Sir Stewart]

I apologize for that. I shouldn't have typed angry.

 

[EL the Famous]

For the most part I get the feeling that everyone is kind of like

[Good Old Neon]

Maybe it was weak, but I think it