Hold on just one damn minute...

[LouieB]

Yes, bobbob, if I misunderstood your question, then you are right. The black guy who casts an anti-white vote is just as bad as the white guy who casts an anti-black vote.

It may well be racist (see the Washington/Epton example above), but simply voting FOR someone because they are black is not racist in and of itself.

 

bobob, I am not trying to insult you or talk down to you and yea, I would love to think everything happens in a racial vacuum, but it doesn't and it hasn't. Maybe a hundred (or maybe less) years from now, when the civil rights movement is a memory and lynchings are a memory and everyone is so fucking color blind, yea okay I can dig that. But while alot of progress has been made in race relations, things aren't perfect. We just went through an election where people spread rumors that Obama was Muslim, or a terrorist, or un-american, etc. etc. and bandied about racial epithets and images despite his efforts to not run as anything but a qualified person.

 

Read Taylor Branch's trilogy on the King years for some background. That is historical to you, but to many people still alive, including me, it is past current events.

 

LouieB

[MrRain422]

(Even though as a Harvard educated millionaire senator, can anyone really say Obama is in touch with the vast majority of the black population?)

 

Perhaps not, but he is certainly far more in touch with the majority of the black population than John McCain is, and more than any other major party candidate in history. So why shouldn't they have voted for Obama?

[bobbob1313]

Perhaps not, but he is certainly far more in touch with the majority of the black population than John McCain is, and more than any other major party candidate in history. So why shouldn't they have voted for Obama?

 

This is a much better point than "He's black so they voted for him".

 

But really, I suppose that argument works, but it still seems based mostly in the superficial.

[MattZ]

This is a much better point than "He's black so they voted for him".

 

But really, I suppose that argument works, but it still seems based mostly in the superficial.

 

bobbob, you didnt answer my question about affirmative action -- I assume you think it's racist?

[LouieB]

OMG...to say Obama is out of touch with black people is ALSO just ignoring reality. Barack worked in a community organization on the south side of Chicago, worked with black churches, got blasted for being part of a black church which is very popular, lives in a integrated neighborhood, is married to a black woman, etc. etc. Now someone has just gone off the tracks completely...

 

bobob, come to Chicago and I will get YOU in touch with black people. Come see Chicago and find out what life is like here....

 

LouieB

[imdwalrus]

Did I vote for an Asian in the aldermanic race this last time because I think Asians are better than Jews? No.

 

You voted for the Asian because he is good at math and laundry, though, right?

[Synthesizer Patel]

I mean, honestly, this makes me feel a little bit sick because I just can't comprehend how it can be a good thing to vote strictly based on race, either for or against. That to me, as much as anything, proves that racism is still alive and well in our country, and that it's only become unacceptable for a certain part of the population to be vocal about it.

 

Racism is wrong no matter who it is. If you want to try to justify it away by saying "Well, this one group is allowed to be racist" then, in my eyes, you are justifying all racism away.

 

issues of race and religion, from an outsiders point of view, seem to be fundamental to your culture - personally i do equate that a level of racisim on both sides, and i can't see you ever getting round that positive or negative discrimination. people just don't talk about race in the same terms within the uk. for example, watch this clip of dizzy rascal from newsnight last night: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PFLQf3hM8Vw&...feature=related and it puts into perspective how important skin-colour is most young people within this country, and this is the same day obama made history. i can't see an american musician being so laissez fair about the whole thing, and that's not just simply because dizzy is not from the country in question.

[bobbob1313]

bobbob, you didnt answer my question about affirmative action -- I assume you think it's racist?

 

I'm very conflicted about it.

 

On the one hand, I do see the need for it somewhat, though more in the hypothetical than in reality. I think it has it's uses as a way to guard against prejudices, but I also think it's inherently unfair to give priority to anyone because of their race.

 

That said, we do have a very long way to go in our country in terms of the bridging the gap of wealth between whites and minorities, but I think we'll really start seeing that more in my lifetime. I'd hope it won't be necessary within 15 years, once people of ElFamous' age group start becoming those who are in charge of college admissions and the like, because I think there will be less to fear in that regard.

 

So I think it's not an absolutely terrible policy, because though inherently unfair, it is in place as a safe guard against a possibly unfair system. That said, I'd hope we don't have to worry about it sooner rather than later.

[Synthesizer Patel]

OMG...to say Obama is out of touch with black people is ALSO just ignoring reality. Barack worked in a community organization on the south side of Chicago, worked with black churches, got blasted for being part of a black church which is very popular, lives in a integrated neighborhood, is married to a black woman, etc. etc. Now someone has just gone off the tracks completely...

 

bobob, come to Chicago and I will get YOU in touch with black people. Come see Chicago and find out what life is like here....

 

LouieB

 

a politician that's in touch with the masses. that's a first.

[bobbob1313]

OMG...to say Obama is out of touch with black people is ALSO just ignoring reality. Barack worked in a community organization on the south side of Chicago, worked with black churches, got blasted for being part of a black church which is very popular, lives in a integrated neighborhood, is married to a black woman, etc. etc. Now someone has just gone off the tracks completely...

 

bobob, come to Chicago and I will get YOU in touch with black people. Come see Chicago and find out what life is like here....

 

LouieB

 

This goes back to my insistence that class is more important in defining our differences than race from my point of view.

 

a politician that's in touch with the masses. that's a first.

 

This is where the whole "messiah" criticism comes from.

[LouieB]

You voted for the Asian because he is good at math and laundry, though, right?

No because she was a female and hot.... (this IS a joke..okay...!!)

 

Is affirmative action racist...Yes IF IF IF you totally divorce it from slavery, institutional racism, legal barriers to people of color, de facto segregation, etc. etc. If it is a way to right racial injustice...OF COURSE NOT (unless you are die in the wool racist who doesn't care what happened in the past and that everyone is on their own...)

 

LouieB

[Dude]

let me preface the following by saying that, if i did come off overly sensitive to the initial pictures and history lessons in our nations' sorrid past w/ relation to race, i apologize. i'm guessing the intent was not to paint me as a racist or (hopefully) someone who's even an iota insensitive to race. to the contrary, i'm the polar opposite...due to a large part in my personal experiences with it.

 

my grandparents, the sweetest most caring poeple in the world, during the earlier years of my youth would regularly use the words 'coon' or 'nigger' to describe anybody that was black. this was due in large part to both their age and their upbringing in heavily african-american populated decatur, IL. my mom and dad put their foot down and issued an ultimatum that either they stop being so insenstive in front of us (and them/in general for that matter) or they would not be allowed to see their grandchildren. it stopped there.

 

better yet, i fast forward to when barack ran against alan keyes for the state senate and hearing my grandfather say 'you know, that one black fella that is running against the other crazy black fella seems like a real amazing man'...not amazing despite the fact that he was black, but just that he was 'amazing'. as my grandfather is by far, my greatest personal hero...it was a defining moment in my life to see him move past his learned perceptions of a man's skin color and just see a man.

 

my long-winded point is that, while i would never ask anyone to ignore or forget, i truly want to see us genuinely move past race as much as possible. i don't ignore the fact the fact that some of my dearest friends/co-workers/heroes are black...i just refuse to let it define them. i don't have the magic equation or formula, but when does the rememberance of where we were become a counterproductive overshadowing of where we need to get to? can you ever have true equality when you are constantly reminding everybody that thing weren't and will never be that way?

 

i didn't and bobob definitely didn't grow up in a time where we could join hand in hand w/ each and every one of the absolutely inspirational individuals that rose up against the widespread racism that segegrated and condone violence against people of color. that said, is it implausible to say that making a personal decision to try and disregard skin color today as much as possible, to move forward...isn't a postive sign that the civil rights movement has acheived something?

 

i'm rambling, but this is such a personal struggle for me intellectualy and emotionaly. for the record, it's also one that you could substitute 'black' w/ any other race, sex, religion, sexual preference, etc. how do we both continue to focus on our differences and move past them? i don't think you can or should do either one exclusively, but something has to change.

 

Really good post, great stories. I really had no intention of stirring anything up by posting that pic and wasn't directing it at anything, I just thought it was nice to see where we were versus where we are today. I think a sign of progress is when race isn't even an issue, and I think that's the core of what you're saying with this election.

[John Smith]

Coming soon toa FoxNews pundit or Talk radio show near you...discussions on how this election is the opposite of MLK's dream and that the election proves that it is really the left who are the driving force behind racisim in America.

[bobbob1313]

Coming soon toa FoxNews pundit or Talk radio show near you...discussions on how this election is the opposite of MLK's dream and that the election proves that it is really the left who are the driving force behind racisim in America.

 

 

Yeah, Walter, what's your point?

[imdwalrus]

No because she was a female and hot.... (this IS a joke..okay...!!)

 

Hmmm.... Weird. Since when did women start getting involved in politics? I figured they'd be too busy shopping and cooking to be interested in what the men were talking about.

[EL the Famous]

Yes. I think you people are having a ridiculous conversation here.

 

i don't agree at all that the conversation in and of itself is ridiculous, but the fact that it's going in circles because nobody wants to really hear what the other is saying is. lou, i do see the difference...but that isn't what i or bobob is arguing.

 

i keep responding because, again, i do take someone inferring that i'm racist or even racially insensitive and/or out of touch w/ regards to race as insulting. 'you had to be there'? no, no i don't...because i'm HERE and, while i'm respectful or the perspective it's provides and a big proponent of not losing sight of history so you don't repeat it's mistakes, i'm just trying to focus on the NOW.

 

that said, it really has become ridiculous and tiring and disheartening. so, move on at will...after I take Matt's curveball and say:

 

i don't know about bobob, but yes...I do. racism is defined as: 'the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others' and/or 'discrimination or prejudice based on race.' actually, while affirmative action itself may not be racist, it most certainly opens the door for an arguably discriminatory decision to be made based on race.

 

bobob, come to Chicago and I will get YOU in touch with black people. Come see Chicago and find out what life is like here....

 

lou, is your chicago/black person more authentic than the black guys bobob already stated he hangs out with? kind of like sarah palin's 'real america'? as i do live in the chicagoland area and my black friends were raised in the area, do i get a pass from 'uncle lou's tour of real blackness'? c'mon, that was right after saying you weren't 'talking down' to him.

[NightOfJoy]

Hmmm.... Weird. Since when did women start getting involved in politics? I figured they'd be too busy shopping and cooking to be interested in what the men were talking about.

 

On that note..........from huffington.com

 

Fox News Chief Political Correspondent Carl Cameron appeared on The

O'Reilly Factor tonight and described in much fuller detail the truly

astonishing behavior, and lack of knowledge, of Sarah Palin on the

campaign trail, as well as the nasty infighting that resulted from,

some would say, Palin's "diva" behavior.

 

Cameron relates how McCain aides were terrified of Palin's lack of

knowledge of international, national, and even basic civic issues.

Cameron reports that Palin was unfamiliar with the concept of

"American exceptionalism," and that not only did she not understand

that Africa was a continent rather than a single country but also that

during debate prep Palin was unable to name all the nations in North

America.

 

 

Palin was apparently a nightmare for her campaign staff to deal with.

She refused preparation help for her interview with Katie Couric and

then blamed her staff, specifically Nicole Wallace, when the interview

was rightly panned as a disaster. After the Couric interview, Palin

turned nasty with her staff and began to accuse them of mishandling

her. Palin would view press clippings of herself in the morning and

throw "tantrums" over the negative coverage. There were times when she

would be so nasty and angry that her staff was reduced to tears.

[bobbob1313]

that said, it really has become ridiculous and tiring and disheartening. so, move on at will...

 

I'll agree with this.

[EL the Famous]

I'll agree with this.

 

obviously, i couldn't agree...wy myself. jesus, this has become fucked up.

 

BTW, dude, yes and thanks. i agree, i would/could never forget and take stock in how far we have come and, have yet to go.

[imdwalrus]

lou, is your chicago/black person more authentic than the black guys bobob already stated he hangs out with? kind of like sarah palin's 'real america'? as i do live in the chicagoland area and my black friends were raised in the area, do i get a pass from 'uncle lou's tour of real blackness'? c'mon, that was right after saying you weren't 'talking down' to him.

 

 

So, you're saying that all black men are the same?

 

Ooooh!!! You're going to hell!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

[LouieB]

This goes back to my insistence that class is more important in defining our differences than race from my point of view.

I keep saying I am done, but then I keep reading this crazy shit.

 

Class is (needless to say) an important factor, but it doesn't account for why the south went from solidly Democratic to soldily Republicans after the Democrats passed the Civil Rights Act. Honestly read Taylor Branch's books (or any book for that matter) and you won't fall back on all these platitudes.

 

LouieB

[imdwalrus]

That was strictly coincidence, Lou.

[LouieB]

So, you're saying that all black men are the same?

 

Ooooh!!! You're going to hell!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

yea right....let's drop him at 75th and Jeffery or 43rd and King or Chatham or Roseland....

 

LouieB

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

well by siding with bobbob and against me is really not doing yourself a service either. I am NOT condoning voting for someone simply because he or she is something (however look at Hillary supporters who voted for McCain, what was THAT about) may appear wrong, but it is not racism. Not allowing someone to vote for someone who is African American (or letting them vote at all) IS racism. I am not saying you are out of touch, but you could simply say....voting for someone because they are of one ethnic group or another isn't right. Don't you think I agree with that? Yes I do!!! I religiously vote against the member of the tribe Bernie Stone, my alderman, not because he is Jewish and I am Jewish, but because he is an asshole. Did I vote for an Asian in the aldermanic race this last time because I think Asians are better than Jews? No. Do Jews vote for Jews because they are Jewish? Yes. Is it smart? No!! Is it racist?? No! BUT BUT BUT, voting for Bernie Epton (a Republican) as opposed to Harold Washington (Black Democrate and first black mayor of Chicago) now THAT WAS RACIST. But then again you had to be there to understand why it was. The that race was largely about race, not ideology.

 

See the difference or not?

 

LouieB

 

 

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

[EL the Famous]

really, i should stick to my wheelhouse of arguing palin's bang-ability and critiquing that lookalike porn they did of her. obviously, my attempts at serious discourse create a megaton bomb of confusion.