The state of the music business thread...

[Vacant Horizon]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-mellenc...t_b_177836.html

 

 

 

above is a link to an article by john mellancamp discussing his view of the music business these days. i am fascinated by the whole history of music in the US. i love the history of artists, even shitty ones. i also love the history of how we listen to music and how this has changed with technology of marketing and listening devices.

i will post more thoughts, but i wanted to get a thread started on this topic as i always have ideas and wonder what others have to say.

[Analogman]

I saw that the other day. Lefsetz posted a response:

 

Re-Mellencamp On The Music Business

 

Reading Mellencamp on the music business is like listening to Fred Silverman or another legendary network programmer lamenting the advent of cable, which decimated dominant television shows from the big three. Mellencamp wants us all to bury our heads in the sand and jet back to 1972, or at least 1982, when he became a superstar, and live in a world of darkness, where shady characters playing a Mafia-esque game had a tight grip on music production and distribution.

 

Hogwash.

 

To criticize SoundScan is to demonize statistics. It

[Central Scrutinizer]

I saw that the other day. Lefsetz posted a response:

 

Re-Mellencamp On The Music Business

I think the record industry fatcat model still exists. It's just that it's moved on to multimedia. The same handful of companies create a star and plug them into video, movies, set them up to ape products. There is always going to be that core group that will lap up whatever's handed to them -- the proles of "1984."

 

There won't be another Beatles (or, god forbid, another Micheal Jackson). Madonna's rise to fame and manipulation of the media I think is the last mega-star that can profoundly impact culture. You have the Britneys, Jonas Bros, Hannah Suzannah, and that ilk that will create enough to keep the multimedia moguls interested. Meanwhile, there's a broad stream of musical content you can wade in as deep as you like. You can even gain immediate access for yourself as a performer and artist. That's turned the music industry on it's head.

[OOO]

I stopped reading that article when he took a pot shot at the Monster Mash.

 

F that guy.

[PopTodd]

I think the record industry fatcat model still exists. It's just that it's moved on to multimedia. The same handful of companies create a star and plug them into video, movies, set them up to ape products. There is always going to be that core group that will lap up whatever's handed to them -- the proles of "1984."

 

There won't be another Beatles (or, god forbid, another Micheal Jackson). Madonna's rise to fame and manipulation of the media I think is the last mega-star that can profoundly impact culture. You have the Britneys, Jonas Bros, Hannah Suzannah, and that ilk that will create enough to keep the multimedia moguls interested. Meanwhile, there's a broad stream of musical content you can wade in as deep as you like. You can even gain immediate access for yourself as a performer and artist. That's turned the music industry on it's head.

 

A site that I am on has a pay-for-play program that I've bought into.

If I remember correctly, I had a pathetic thread on here some time ago, where I asked you to check it out.

 

Nonetheless, I can see the industry moving into some sort of form of that model. Radio will still exist, of course, but there will be more and more niche sites sprouting up that are some sort of label/radio hybrid... that sign artists, and pay them per listener per day. It'll be free to the listener, but they will make their $ from advertising. And they will market to niche listeners -- indie.

 

I imagine that the majors will have some version of this as well -- free streaming for big artists (for a limited time) -- paid for by advertisers.

 

i.e.:

Whenever you stream a song at http://www.iacmusic.com the artist gets paid. And the site can show the numbers to advertisers, so they can charge more for space.

[Vacant Horizon]

I saw that the other day. Lefsetz posted a response:

 

Re-Mellencamp On The Music Business

 

 

thanks for posting this. i will read and comment later.

[Central Scrutinizer]

...The real crisis in radio can be traced to the Telecommunications Act of 1996, which allowed radio consolidation, and the homogenization of playlists.

 

I worked for a business journal in the late 1980s in Jacksonville, FL, with one of my beats being local media. I saw the writing on the wall with the above when I interviewed program directors and how they had automated formats to the point that live bodies were no longer even making any judgments with the formats. It came down to what software you bought, for applying algorhythms to songs and their current ranking for how they were automatically slotted to play once every four hours, what songs they would follow and precede. Widget radio.

[PopTodd]

Per my post above:

I imagine that, once artists become established enough, they can completely bypass the whole label thing, set up their own sites, and draw enough listeners there that they can get advertisers, themselves.

 

i.e.:

U2 could stream their entire album for free, at their own site. It's be nothing for listeners to hear and the band could make money from their recordings from the advertisers on their streaming site. (Helping render the piracy/free DL argument a moot point).

 

Unknown artists (like me) could still rely on the power of radio, touring, and hosting sites (the new version of a record label) to help them get the word out.

 

No matter what, downloadable and physical product would still be made available, for a price. But that would no longer be the primary income source for either "label" or artist. It would be more like a newspaper/magazine business model.

[nodep5]

I guess it is hard to wrap our heads around all of the nuances of this discussion, but one thing is obvious, and that is the fm radio dial is useless. What is the point, and who are the masses supporting the same 40 country songs, the same 40 pop songs, the same 100 classic rock songs? Who can honestly tune in regularly to the same old same old day after day. I could honestly care less at this point if FM Radio and the clear channels of the world go bye bye. I probably have listened to non talk radio for 1 hour in the last 3 months. It is so bad, I completely don't care. I have my ipod, satelitte radio and my turntable. I don't need to hear anything that the radio is playing. Am I alone on this? It just boggles the mind how much mediocracy is held with value. I'm sure though when network TV and FM Radio all goes under the govt will run in and save it.

[SteveMck]

There are other revenue streams that some artists use to their advantage, Phish and the Black Crowes come to mind.

They both offer their live shows the next day for download for a price. Obviously, this won't work for every artist as you have to have a big enough fanbase to download enough shows to offset the cost of putting it all on the web. But if you really like the band and loved the show, for $10.00 you get a pretty nice memento of the evening.

[OOO]

I completely disagree with Mr. Couger in general. The internet and computers have made it ridiculously easy for people without a giant support structure (i.e. a record label) to get their art seen and heard. The way people listened to music has changed and the way people will make money off music will change, but I believe things are changing towards favoring the little guy over the corporations and not vice versa.

 

I agree with PopTodd that one of the directions thing will move in is free content supported by advertisements. I have a musician friend who makes serious money through advertisements on her youtube page. She has not gotten radio play and she's not on a record label, but she is making things work because of how democratic the internet makes things.

 

Sure, because there are so many ways to get music now I doubt that there will ever be bands that get as big as the Beatles, but so what?

[Gobias Industries]

Anyone who decides to nickname himself "Cougar" loses all non-musicmaking cred whatsoever, but I suppose he's freaking out because "his" old business model is dying out. He has to realize that this is changing. But, at least, props to him for voicing his opinion in an orderly manner, rather than lashing out in every way at the things that have sustained the band's popularity (Metallica, you're a world-class fool).

[Analogman]

He didn't give himself that name - Tony DeFries did.

[Vacant Horizon]

i basically think we all need to quit going to concerts and buying cds until the prices come down. cds should be 10 bucks, album downloads 5 bucks and concert tickets should not be more than 30 bucks. also, i can see bands having some sort of subscriptions service where you pledge 10 bucks a month and get a bunch of shit. i would do that with wilco. AND, any bands that play small venues have to start shows earlier than midnight. i'm thinking 7pm. or do two shows. i would support and probably get into a lot more bands if it wasn't such a hassle to see them not to mention buy a cd from some

record store jerk.

 

 

also, big bands make to much money...U2, springsteen, neil young. all of them could tour and give away their music for free for the rest of their lives and would still die with millions in the bank while the rest of us drop almost $200 to see a show and the ridiculous hassle it is to see such a show.

[LouieB]

i basically think we all need to quit going to concerts and buying cds until the prices come down. cds should be 10 bucks, album downloads 5 bucks and concert tickets should not be more than 30 bucks...... also, big bands make to much money...U2, springsteen, neil young. all of them could tour and give away their music for free for the rest of their lives and would still die with millions in the bank while the rest of us drop almost $200 to see a show and the ridiculous hassle it is to see such a show.

This article is not about the history of American popular music, it is just about John Mellencamp. If anything it is only about the last 20 years or so and that hardly represents the history of popular music which is now over 100 years old.

 

Actually you are correct. We should stop going to see music that costs more than $30 a show and we shouldn't buy CDs for more than $10 unless we really want to support the artist. Both are possible right now...right now. Just see local bands or ones that come to clubs that don't charge too much and don't buy albums new, buy them used, because there are plenty out there. Sure it is unpatriotic and all, but support your local musicians by buying tickets to their shows and their merch and let everyone else fend for themselves. There are plenty of musicians that deserve our support, they aren't named U2, Springsteen, or Neil Young (I love all those artists.....).

 

The music business has never been all that high minded, but right now it is downright ridiculous. John Cougar Mellencamp is plenty rich and makes tons of money on his airplay and selling his back catalogue when he can't get a contract with a big old car company. No tears for this guy, not even one. (Plus it is cheap to live in Indiana anyway, so suck it up John...)

 

LouieB

[Vacant Horizon]

This article is not about the history of American popular music, it is just about John Mellencamp. If anything it is only about the last 20 years or so and that hardly represents the history of popular music which is now over 100 years old.

 

Actually you are correct. We should stop going to see music that costs more than $30 a show and we shouldn't buy CDs for more than $10 unless we really want to support the artist. Both are possible right now...right now. Just see local bands or ones that come to clubs that don't charge too much and don't buy albums new, buy them used, because there are plenty out there. Sure it is unpatriotic and all, but support your local musicians by buying tickets to their shows and their merch and let everyone else fend for themselves. There are plenty of musicians that deserve our support, they aren't named U2, Springsteen, or Neil Young (I love all those artists.....).

 

The music business has never been all that high minded, but right now it is downright ridiculous. John Cougar Mellencamp is plenty rich and makes tons of money on his airplay and selling his back catalogue when he can't get a contract with a big old car company. No tears for this guy, not even one. (Plus it is cheap to live in Indiana anyway, so suck it up John...)

 

LouieB

 

 

well, i could give a shit about john mellencamp. never liked him and never will. he does make TOO much money and it's hard for me to have sympathy for him or any other big artist. interestingly, as this is all going on in the market, i've basically changed my music habits back to the way i was in high school. for years i was buying too much music and seeing too much music that i had not much more than an ancillary interest in. now, i just can't keep up. so, i've basically settled on about 10 artists that i usually end up playing anyway. at the same time, GOOD new music just seems to come to me when i quit looking:)

as far as buying music, i just got sick of feeling beholden to the assholes at the local shop. i do want to help out the nice dude at the used place some times though. BUT, i'm basically going digital. it's just so easy to download an album and play it on my ipod. when an album is not available, i'll get it 'other ways'. these other ways would die out if music was cheaper though. 5 bucks max for albums on itunes or just buy directly from the artist's website.

[LouieB]

as far as buying music, i just got sick of feeling beholden to the assholes at the local shop.

I am particularly interested in what you mean by this. Do the clerks at your local indie record shop try and get you to buy what they think you should buy? If so they are making a big mistake I would think. Why would they do this? Don't they want you to buy what YOU want to buy and stock that?

 

LouieB

[Gobias Industries]

He didn't give himself that name - Tony DeFries did.

 

Well, he adopted it as part of his persona, basically, so it's only one step removed.

[tinnitus photography]

also, i can see bands having some sort of subscriptions service where you pledge 10 bucks a month and get a bunch of shit.

 

at least two band (Einsturzende Neubaten and Throwing Muses/50 Foot Wave/Kristin Hersh) already do this.

 

also, big bands make to much money...U2, springsteen, neil young. all of them could tour and give away their music for free for the rest of their lives and would still die with millions in the bank while the rest of us drop almost $200 to see a show and the ridiculous hassle it is to see such a show.

 

so who gets to decide how much money is enough? you? yes, you do. by not buying a ticket and going to the show. but that's the extent of yr influence. i don't think capitalism will shrivel up and die because of you.

[Vacant Horizon]

at least two band (Einsturzende Neubaten and Throwing Muses/50 Foot Wave/Kristin Hersh) already do this.

 

 

 

so who gets to decide how much money is enough? you? yes, you do. by not buying a ticket and going to the show. but that's the extent of yr influence. i don't think capitalism will shrivel up and die because of you.

 

 

that's my point exactly. also, i'm making no point about 'capitalism shriveling up because of me'. don't know where you got that.

[Vacant Horizon]

I am particularly interested in what you mean by this. Do the clerks at your local indie record shop try and get you to buy what they think you should buy? If so they are making a big mistake I would think. Why would they do this? Don't they want you to buy what YOU want to buy and stock that?

 

LouieB

 

well, we have a few indie shops where i live. the one opened in 04. initially the guy was great. gave a good price on used cds, focused on what his customers wanted etc. after a while, he quit paying attention to anyone that wasn't a hipster. the place has become a bastion for pretention and the clerk is an utter asshole. that being said, the place is always packed on the weekends. so, good for him. now, this change occurred as digital music was becoming more and more available and i just decided to stop the hassle of going to the store and just get stuff online. there's another store which has a good used selection and vinyl. these dudes have made no bones about being assholes since their inception. incidently, the downfall of some indie stores, my local ones at least, have a lot to do with the whole record store pretention a la high fidelity. like it or not, the stores as well as the record companies are part of the middle men that are becoming more and more unnecessary as the business changes.

[JUDE]

I kinda like John Cougar Mellencamp.

[John Smith]

I kinda like John Cougar Mellencamp.

 

We agree on something? Wow. For me I find him to be in the same category as Tom Petty in that I generally like him, but don't go out of my way to listen to him or try to avoid him when he coems on.

[jff]

well, we have a few indie shops where i live. the one opened in 04. initially the guy was great. gave a good price on used cds, focused on what his customers wanted etc. after a while, he quit paying attention to anyone that wasn't a hipster. the place has become a bastion for pretention and the clerk is an utter asshole. that being said, the place is always packed on the weekends. so, good for him. now, this change occurred as digital music was becoming more and more available and i just decided to stop the hassle of going to the store and just get stuff online. there's another store which has a good used selection and vinyl. these dudes have made no bones about being assholes since their inception. incidently, the downfall of some indie stores, my local ones at least, have a lot to do with the whole record store pretention a la high fidelity. like it or not, the stores as well as the record companies are part of the middle men that are becoming more and more unnecessary as the business changes.

 

You and I are both from Atlanta, if I'm not mistaken. I don't know which stores you're referring to, but here's a telling bit from a recent interview with the folks at Criminal Records:

 

Sias: What albums have always been strong sellers throughout the years?

 

Levin: Whatever we're into at the time.

 

(Levin is the owner of Criminal Records)

 

Entire interview here:

 

http://www.pinemagazine.com/site/article/1908

[tinnitus photography]

that's my point exactly. also, i'm making no point about 'capitalism shriveling up because of me'. don't know where you got that.

 

just because you think that U2/Bruce/whoever is playing the enormo-dome has made enough money and shouldn't charge that much for a ticket, obviously others disagree w/ you, so your one man boycott isn't too effective, is it?

 

or do you think the gubbmint should put laws in place to throttle back their greed?