Has Jeff ever discussed the meaning of Ashes of American Flags?

[Winghead]

That specific line about saluting ashes of American Flags in general?

[Bhickman]

probably has something to do with having to burn flags after they've touched the ground. or the ridiculousness of prosecuting people for flag burning (when they haven't hit the ground - which begs the question, couldn't people burning the flag just say they dropped them on the ground? LoL)

[jmacomber68w]

probably has something to do with having to burn flags after they've touched the ground. or the ridiculousness of prosecuting people for flag burning (when they haven't hit the ground - which begs the question, couldn't people burning the flag just say they dropped them on the ground? LoL)

 

Not to make this some sort of political thing, I totally respect your opinion and everything, but someone being against flag burning isn't that ridiculous. I guess you can make a case that going through with the prosecution for flag burning is a bit extreme. I am against flag burning of any country because to me, it is disrespectful to the people who have died for it. I guess I just feel that calling the anti-flag burning stance ridiculous is a bit extreme, when there are way more things that you could be prospected for, that are in fact ridiculous (small possessions of pot)

 

Now, to the question at hand, this is how I have always took that lyric. I feel that Jeff was trying to compare himself (or whoever) to a burned American Flag. A burned flag has failed its purpose to whomever burned it. An American flag stands for certain ideals, and if it has been reduced to ashes, then those ideals no longer exist for the person who burned it. I think that Jeff thought of himself as that burned flag, something that could have been great, but failed (which is why he would die if he could come back new)

[bird jam]

Not to make this some sort of political thing, I totally respect your opinion and everything, but someone being against flag burning isn't that ridiculous. I guess you can make a case that going through with the prosecution for flag burning is a bit extreme. I am against flag burning of any country because to me, it is disrespectful to the people who have died for it. I guess I just feel that calling the anti-flag burning stance ridiculous is a bit extreme, when there are way more things that you could be prospected for, that are in fact ridiculous (small possessions of pot)

 

Now, to the question at hand, this is how I have always took that lyric. I feel that Jeff was trying to compare himself (or whoever) to a burned American Flag. A burned flag has failed its purpose to whomever burned it. An American flag stands for certain ideals, and if it has been reduced to ashes, then those ideals no longer exist for the person who burned it. I think that Jeff thought of himself as that burned flag, something that could have been great, but failed (which is why he would die if he could come back new)

 

It appeared to me that Bhickman was calling the prosecution of flag-burning ridiculous, not people being against flag-burning. Big difference.

[Griddles]

Yes, he has.

 

 

On the Ghost is Born tour compilation on Owl and Bear, one of the tracks is Ashes and before the song starts Jeff says something along the lines of the song is about saluting the people who have the courage to burn flags.

[rockinrob]

I seriously doubt the meaning of that song is in any way literal. I think it means different things to him, and the song is filled full of images that all have different meanings. There is a theme to it, but not a meaning as you would typically define the word meaning.

[Three dollars and 63 cents]

In Greg Kot's book, Jeff talks about his discovery of a collection of shortwave-radio transmissions that in many ways inspired YHF (including the album's title). During that part, he says something that right away clicked for me as being a central theme in Ashes:

 

"The recordings got Tweedy thinking about geography, distance, the desire for human connection in a time glutted with media, apathy, and convenience stores. 'I started writing from the viewpoint of America as this imagined space, the America that exists in everyone,' Tweedy says. 'There is nothing more abstract to me than the idea of a country. These solitudes exist so apart from each other in this sea of white noise and information. And the beautiful thing is they keep transmitting to each other in the hope that somebody is going to find them. And the beauty is that people still do, still find some meaning in another person, in a relationship, find some way to communicate, even though more often than not it's in a way that's not what they intended. Because some communication is better than giving up or not communicating at all.'"

 

A little later, Kot explains that "'Ashes of American Flags' began as a primitive John Lennon-like chord progression, cycling back and forth between a B and a G, but gained luster, thanks to a chance encounter with an Igor Stravinsky recording that struck Tweedy as a perfect fit for the song's coda. Though Stravinsky's estate denied permission to sample the composition, Wilco was undeterred: Tweedy, Bennett, and company took the composer's serial music and cut it up, tromped on it, and then ran it backward through a synthesizer to create a lost-in-space fade. It's the album's most disorienting moment, and when it drops into the lap of 'Heavy Metal Drummer,' it's a blessed relief." (pp. 194-195 if you're following along at home)

[luke79]

To paraphrase Bill Hicks "No one has ever died for a flag. They've died for what the flag symbolizes, which happens to be, the freedom to burn the fucking flag."

[Gabe32]

i think the first verse is supposed to emphasize the mundane, trivial everyday life in american society. cigarettes, diet coca-cola, and particularly a cash machine are all kind of american symbols, and unflattering ones at that. he didn't say motorcycles, pie, and baseball ... he chose corrupting and addicting items.

 

"i wonder why we listen to poets/when nobody gives a fuck" ... perhaps the perception of americans kind of lack of emphasis on thought maybe...

 

the next few verses are kind of obscure but the closing verse is my favorite, when he becomes patriotic despite all his country's ills. he would like to salute his decaying country ('the ashes of american flags') and all our dead soldiers ('filling up [body] bags')

 

this is far and away one of his coolest songs. it could have been titled 'my country has disappeared' way before the new song that just came out. both narrators are kind of naive about the definition of a country...

[agonistes]

The most appropriate way to dispose of a tattered flag that's no longer fit for service is by burning -- see k of the United States Flag Code here.

 

That's always been the key to how I've interpreted the song. In the song we're watching a country that's so bogged down by the minutiae (five dollars and sixty-three cents; a hundred in twenties and a small service fee) that we've lost all the symbolism and abstract meaning that goes into the ideals that come with being part of a country (I wonder why we listen to poets when nobody gives a fuck). If we're supposed to be saluting the ashes of American flags, then we're paying respect to a unifying symbol that's been retired with honor, but that really isn't a symbol any more because it's been destroyed. We're hanging on to that ideal regardless of whether or not we should know better, or whether or not anybody else is.

[the_fliz1]

To paraphrase Bill Hicks "No one has ever died for a flag. They've died for what the flag symbolizes, which happens to be, the freedom to burn the fucking flag."

 

 

Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winner.

 

I can certainly understand somebody objecting to another person burning a flag. As a person who served in the U.S. military, I can say from experience, that we were taught to revere and cherish the flag. But even then, I got the the sense that we were supposed to honor the meaning of the flag more than the piece of fabric.

 

As for the question, I have been trying all morning to find the actual track where Jeff talks about the meaning from the AGIB compilation, but I can't seem to find it. I do remember that he does say it is one of the few songs that he wrote specifically for a reason, and that it was in honor of all of the people who have the courage to burn flags.

[shanerator]

I've never thought of this song as advocating flag burning. Rather, as was mentioned earlier, I always thought of the proper way to dispose of a no-longer serviceable American flag, which is by burning.

 

I think he's saluting what those ashes once stood for, amid all of the triviality and not caring that goes on today. The line that always strikes me is, "You know I would die if I could come back new," which leads me to believe that this isn't just about our country but ourselves, questioning what we've become since we didn't become our ideal.

 

So he salutes the old flag and the old leaves that will all become new again, something that's much harder for people to do.

[gabepride]

That speech he gave about flag burning came during one of the California shows from November 2004. He was very clearly bummed about the Bush re-election. He says during one of those shows, "Don't mourn; organize." There's no two ways to interpret what he said about Ashes of American Flags, particularly the lyric in question. It's about praising the act of flag burning, not as a means of properly disposing of a fallen or tattered flag, but as an act of political protest.

[Guest Speed Racer]

There's no two ways to interpret what he said about Ashes of American Flags, particularly the lyric in question. It's about praising the act of flag burning, not as a means of properly disposing of a fallen or tattered flag, but as an act of political protest.

 

He could very well have meant it that way in the context of the show, but I think the more apt interpretation is the one about leaves/flags/rebirth that shanerator mentioned. In my opinion, at least.

 

I've always thought the song was much more self-absorbed than it was about any sort of social commentary; the American culture artifacts that he references in the lyrics see to be happening around him more than defining him. He's looking for rebirth, and he seems to be doing so on account of a profound emptiness, but I don't think that emptiness is directly related to the artifacts or flag-burning or American culture.

 

The whole song is very subtle, and I've never really tried to take it literally because I doubt that's how it was intended to be read. Very impressionistic.

[Analogman]

I sometimes think of this song when I hear Ashes of American Flags:

 

[gabepride]

He could very well have meant it that way in the context of the show, but I think the more apt interpretation is the one about leaves/flags/rebirth that shanerator mentioned. In my opinion, at least.

 

I've always thought the song was much more self-absorbed than it was about any sort of social commentary; the American culture artifacts that he references in the lyrics see to be happening around him more than defining him. He's looking for rebirth, and he seems to be doing so on account of a profound emptiness, but I don't think that emptiness is directly related to the artifacts or flag-burning or American culture.

 

The whole song is very subtle, and I've never really tried to take it literally because I doubt that's how it was intended to be read. Very impressionistic.

 

Of course, there are many ways to interpret any piece of music, and no one has the "correct" interpretation. I hope my post above didn't seem narrow minded. But if the question is, "Has Jeff said anything about what it means?" then the answer is yes; he said it's in favor of flag burning as an act of protest. He was only talking about that one lyric. The song as a whole is about much more, for certain. Also, it's possible that his own understanding of what that lyric meant was different when he wrote it, or has changed since late fall 2004. I don't doubt that his view on it at the time was colored by the political context.

 

On a related note, at the Charlottesville screening I had the chance to ask Brandon Canty to comment on the theme of the decay of the American downtown and how it relates to the song. He said the band really wanted to talk about it. He said this is what America looks like now, and anyone who's been on the road over the last 20-30 years knows it. He said the "dirty little secret" of the DVD is that it's presented in reverse chronological order (a secret the members of this board already knew). They filmed that soundcheck performance of Ashes last minute as an afterthought, and included it as the opening shot because it provided a nice frame for the film musically and thematically. The camera lingers on the portraits of all the old country greats to highlight the history of these performance halls and to root the band temporally and geographically in a space that in many towns is disappearing.

[Moss]

I sometimes think of this song when I hear Ashes of American Flags:

 

 

I agree it's a very impressionistic song. Seems very much about the emptiness of consumerism (the ATM stuff, the leaves "filling up shopping bags"), loneliness, doubting himself as an artist (the "hear myself sing" part), the courage of someone who is willing to reject the crass consumerism of America and call bullshit on it all, the desire to start over fresh. "This Machine" is probably a reference to his guitar.

 

Or maybe not.

[mfwahl]

"This Machine" is probably a reference to his guitar.

 

I never thought of that, but it's a nice nod to Woody.