2010 NBA Playoffs

[bobbob1313]

Haters gonna hate. Lovers gonna love. I don't even want none of the above.

[tugmoose]

Haters gonna hate. Lovers gonna love. I don't even want none of the above.

So ... you don't want either. Or, being a double negative, you want both.

[bobbob1313]

Drip drip drip.

[tugmoose]

Thanks for clarifying.

[MattZ]

Had Sportscenter on this morning for a couple of minutes before heading out to work. The big 3 were in a studio being interviewed by someone from espn (I dont remember who). The interviewer directed the first question, "what will it be like for the 3 of you to play together??", to Wade. Lebron sat there listening as Wade got first crack at the question.

 

SexNap, I disagree. The larger point isn't the histrionics. The larger point is that MJ, Magic, Bird, Kobe, etc., would have had no part of sitting there silent while someone else answered a question like that. No way.

 

Anyway, good for Lebron. I am not suggesting he has to be an ego-driven madman hellbent on demonstrating his superiority over every other ballplayer who ever lived. Let him enjoy South Beach and win a few rings. I am not being judgmental. Just observing the reality. He is cut from a different cloth than the best players in NBA history. Winning rings wasn't enough for them. They were the alpha dogs.

[bobbob1313]

Had Sportscenter on this morning for a couple of minutes before heading out to work. The big 3 were in a studio being interviewed by someone from espn (I dont remember who). The interviewer directed the first question, "what will it be like for the 3 of you to play together??", to Wade. Lebron sat there listening as Wade got first crack at the question.

 

SexNap, I disagree. The larger point isn't the histrionics. The larger point is that MJ, Magic, Bird, Kobe, etc., would have had no part of sitting there silent while someone else answered a question like that. No way.

 

Anyway, good for Lebron. I am not suggesting he has to be an ego-driven madman hellbent on demonstrating his superiority over every other ballplayer who ever lived. Let him enjoy South Beach and win a few rings. I am not being judgmental. Just observing the reality. He is cut from a different cloth than the best players in NBA history. Winning rings wasn't enough for them. They were the alpha dogs.

 

I liked Isiah Thomas' take on this idea of being the Alpha Dog:

 

Only Isiah Thomas made it sound like it was any kind of possible. Thomas was a champion and Hall of Famer and star before he was the basketball coach at FIU. I asked him, in his prime, how he would have felt if someone of the stature of James came to his team to overshadow him.

 

"I would feel lucky," he said.

 

Not threatened?

 

"Sometimes the moment calls for you to step forward," he said. "Sometimes the moment calls for you to step back."

 

But what about the idea that stars don't merely want to win but want to be the reason for winning?

 

"Those are the guys who always lose," Thomas said. "Those are the guys that champions prey on. Those are the losers."

 

That sounds good, right? So does this:

 

"If real winning is what you are pursuing, ego and money and glory don't get in the way," Thomas said. "Great players always play well together until they win the championship. That's when the `disease of more' creeps in. But LeBron hasn't won. There's always an ego sacrifice with winning. Pau Gasol and Ron Artest can do a lot more scoring elsewhere. Kareem was the greatest player ever, and he gave room to Magic. Do you want to be The Man or do you want to be a champion? What really matters to you?"

 

(Say what you want about Isiah the Coach, or GM or man, but the guy had an idea of what it took to win as a player. Bill Simmons' Book of Basketball has a great section about Isiah and "The Secret" to winning.)

[MattZ]

I liked Isiah Thomas' take on this idea of being the Alpha Dog:

 

 

 

(Say what you want about Isiah the Coach, or GM or man, but the guy knew what it took to win as a player. Bill Simmons' Book of Basketball has a great section about Isiah and "The Secret" to winning.)

 

Again, apples and oranges. You've flipped it. Isiah is discussing what it would be like for someone to come to his team to overshadow him. Lebron is going to Wade's team and will be overshadowed (potentially) by Wade.

 

Look, this is all stupid. I realize it. Lebron did what was good for him, and that's great. I just think it's interesting to discuss what makes players like MJ, etc., tick.

[Moss]

It is an interesting choice LeBron made. Basically he is saying he would rather play second fiddle and win a ring than be the top dog and struggle. It will gain him a ring or two but the discussions about him being the greatest player and comparing him to MJ have to pretty much stop. You can't claim you are the greatest player ever when you are surrounded by that kind of talent. It's now an expectation that they get a ring and it won't be considered as impressive as if he could have done it in Cleveland.

 

My fear is that now Chris Paul, Carmello, etc... will feel they have to do the same thing. Only 8 teams have won the NBA ring in the last 30 years, the way it's going it's going to drop down to about 5 teams with all the other teams being perennially mediocre.

[cryptique]

The moral of the story: the salary cap has failed.

[bobbob1313]

Matt, I know you aren't really killing LeBron for this, so this is more of a general post than specifically directed towards you:

 

Well, most of those alpha dog greatest players ever are crazy. Most of them have behavior on (and, oftentimes, off the court) that would be considered socially reprehensible if it wasn't for the fact that they apply it to something that doesn't matter. Most of them are gigantic jerks who have no sense of what is real in their lives.

 

It's a little bit funny how in sports we celebrate actions that we would be outraged with if the guy in our office did that. If Michael Jordan worked in Accounting and was doing stuff like punching the Steve Kerr of accounting in the face, he wouldn't be looked at as a hero. He would be looked at as a crazy person. Because he was a crazy person.

 

I understand the argument that MJ and Kobe never would have done what LeBron did, but I'm not going to put LeBron down because he doesn't have a borderline psychopathic desire to crush people. We're holding him to a standard of our own creation that has nothing to do with him, and everything to do with us. We believe in order to be great, you have to want to kill your opponent. That's fine, that's the standard we've put up for sports superstars, but it's not LeBron's failing. It's ours. It's unreasonable for us to demand this from someone.

[bobbob1313]

The moral of the story: the salary cap has failed.

 

You're talking about last year when the Lakers won the Championship with a $90 mil payroll that will, in all likelihood, dwarf what the Heat's payroll will be next year, right?

[MattZ]

Matt, I know you aren't really killing LeBron for this, so this is more of a general post than specifically directed towards you:

 

Well, most of those alpha dog greatest players ever are crazy. Most of them have behavior on (and, oftentimes, off the court) that would be considered socially reprehensible if it wasn't for the fact that they apply it to something that doesn't matter. Most of them are gigantic jerks who have no sense of what is real in their lives.

 

It's a little bit funny how in sports we celebrate actions that we would be outraged with if the guy in our office did that. If Michael Jordan worked in Accounting and was doing stuff like punching the Steve Kerr of accounting in the face, he wouldn't be looked at as a hero. He would be looked at as a crazy person. Because he was a crazy person.

 

I understand the argument that MJ and Kobe never would have done what LeBron did, but I'm not going to put LeBron down because he doesn't have a borderline psychopathic desire to crush people. We're holding him to a standard of our own creation that has nothing to do with him, and everything to do with us. We believe in order to be great, you have to want to kill your opponent. That's fine, that's the standard we've put up for sports superstars, but it's not LeBron's failing. It's ours. It's unreasonable for us to demand this from someone.

 

Couldn't agree more. I am not sure we should celebrate the qualities that made Jordan, Kobe, etc., who they are. Jordan's competitiveness probably borders on the pathological.

[Guest Speed Racer]

Matt, I know you aren't really killing LeBron for this, so this is more of a general post than specifically directed towards you:

 

Well, most of those alpha dog greatest players ever are crazy. Most of them have behavior on (and, oftentimes, off the court) that would be considered socially reprehensible if it wasn't for the fact that they apply it to something that doesn't matter. Most of them are gigantic jerks who have no sense of what is real in their lives.

 

It's a little bit funny how in sports we celebrate actions that we would be outraged with if the guy in our office did that. If Michael Jordan worked in Accounting and was doing stuff like punching the Steve Kerr of accounting in the face, he wouldn't be looked at as a hero. He would be looked at as a crazy person. Because he was a crazy person.

 

I understand the argument that MJ and Kobe never would have done what LeBron did, but I'm not going to put LeBron down because he doesn't have a borderline psychopathic desire to crush people. We're holding him to a standard of our own creation that has nothing to do with him, and everything to do with us. We believe in order to be great, you have to want to kill your opponent. That's fine, that's the standard we've put up for sports superstars, but it's not LeBron's failing. It's ours. It's unreasonable for us to demand this from someone.

 

Best post of the thread.

[bobbob1313]

Couldn't agree more. I am not sure we should celebrate the qualities that made Jordan, Kobe, etc., who they are. Jordan's competitiveness probably borders on the pathological.

 

Is it any wonder most of the capital G Great athletes can't seem to keep their shit together off the playing field?

[MattZ]

Is it any wonder most of the capital G Great athletes can't seem to keep their shit together off the playing field?

 

well, it's not like Antoine Walker has figured it all out either.

[Winston Legthigh]

Where is the idea that Jordan, Bird, & Magic "did it on their own" coming from?

 

Each had teammates that were named to the NBA 50th Anniversary All-Time team (besides being hall-of famers - this list is like a hall-of-fame for hall-of famers):

 

Jordan had Pippen

Bird had McHale and Robert Parish

Magic had Abdul-Jabbar and James Worthy

 

Isiah had... Bill Laimbeer?

 

Is "did it on their own" code for "Had a GM that was capable of putting a decent roster together"?

 

If Lebron had won a championship in Cleveland, he truly would have "done it on his own" because the rest of his former team sucks.

[bobbob1313]

Isiah never played with a single player that was as good as Pippen, McHale, or the rest of them, but those Championship teams were very deep and versatile. They had an answer for everyone, and could throw out a bunch of different styles at you.

 

That was a team in the truest sense of the word. They traded their highest scorer in 88-89 and got better.

[u2roolz]

Where is the idea that Jordan, Bird, & Magic "did it on their own" coming from?

 

 

I guess the general consensus amongst delusional & revisionist NBA fans is that those teammates you listed were there as a matter of fact. And not brought in as a free agent. They kind of all grew up on their respective teams together surrounding their own respective "The Man": Jordan, Bird, & Magic. Although, Magic got there as a draft pick after Kareem had been there for awhile doing his own thing.

 

So I guess bottom line of thinking that I can read into is that those teammates only became name stars because of who & where they were in the league.

[bobbob1313]

Which is, of course, total fucking bunk. Those players were great players, and would have been no matter what. Would they have won as many rings if they didn't play with their respective superstars? Of course not, but their respective superstars wouldn't have won as many rings without them.

[u2roolz]

Which is, of course, total fucking bunk. Those players were great players, and would have been no matter what. Would they have won as many rings if they didn't play with their respective superstars? Of course not, but their respective superstars wouldn't have won as many rings without them.

 

Right.

 

But these people want to put Bird, Magic & Michael on the highest NBA pedestal. Then on the 2nd tier are those teammates that Winston listed.

 

Now the confusion arises for these fans as to where to put LeBron and Wade. If LeBron "had won on his own", he'd be in the highest tier of NBA greats. Now a lot of these people want to put him in the 2nd tier, if he ever wins in Miami.

 

Edit: I should also note that I can see where an NBA fan is coming from for wanting to have games where LeBron, Wade & Bosh played against each other instead of on the same team. It takes away from the competitive aspect. Although, I think other younger players in the NBA will get better by playing against this team.

 

And I'm fucking sick and tired of "The Man" too! I really think it all boils down to these NBA fans lying on their deathbed in the future and having witnessed "The Man". It's like they feel they want their own "Jordan" in their own adult lifetime to talk about to their future or present children. Ok. Dr. Phil is going to shut it now.

 

Edit Part Deux: In my eyes and imagination all of these "The Man" fans are rubbing these guys' egos. They're like little minions from Despicable Me (now in theaters) rubbing every inch of these players with all of this nonsense. Then they get mad and play dumb when someone does an egotistical thing (read: The Decision). Gee...I wonder how it came to that point.

[bobbob1313]

So let's play out a hypothetical based on what people are saying:

 

Wade and LeBron continue on their respective career paths as far as points and stats and everything. LeBron is clearly a better player than Dwyane Wade and is going to put up a far more prolific career.

 

Let's say they win 3 titles together over an 8 year period. Wade's got 4, LeBron's got three, but LeBron only won his because of Wade, right?

 

So is Wade a tier higher because he happened to play with better teammates earlier in his career and then decided to stay in Miami and play with LeBron?

 

If both Wade and LeBron had gone to Chicago to play together, would they both be "chickenshits" or would it still just be LeBron? Is LeBron the only one who suffers historically from this whole episode? I mean, we're talking about two players who might go down as top 25 players EVER, will both be stained?

 

dit Part Deux: In my eyes and imagination all of these "The Man" fans are rubbing these guys' egos. They're like little minions from Despicable Me (now in theaters) rubbing every inch of these players with all of this nonsense. Then they get mad and play dumb when someone does an egotistical thing (read: The Decision). Gee...I wonder how it came to that point.

Welcome to America.

 

LeBron's been "The King", "The Chosen One" etc since he was 15, and we're all shocked that he has this ego.

[u2roolz]

Let's say they win 3 titles together over an 8 year period. Wade's got 4, LeBron's got three, but LeBron only won his because of Wade, right?

 

So is Wade a tier higher because he happened to play with better teammates earlier in his career and then decided to stay in Miami and play with LeBron?

 

If both Wade and LeBron had gone to Chicago to play together, would they both be "chickenshits" or would it still just be LeBron? Is LeBron the only one who suffers historically from this whole episode? I mean, we're talking about two players who might go down as top 25 players EVER, will both be stained?

 

Hey, at the least it can give all of the folks something to talk about at the local bars for the next eternity.

 

But in all seriousness (although I do kind of mean that above) I think by their rationale that Wade is a better player. They need to keep some consistency with their harebrained logic. Plus, people will love to tear down LeBron when he wins in this current situation.

 

A Very Special Example: Let's take this perspective - Superheroes: Superman can not defeat Lex Luthor on his own and he has never beaten him ever in this alterna history I am creating. He seeks out help from Batman who has beaten the Joker once before. Batman enlists the help of the Green Lantern just for extra measure, you know, in case it really is damn tough to beat a bald money grubbing foe. Superman, Batman, & Green Lantern show up to Lex Luthor's lair and beat the shit out of him and in the press there are 2 stories: 1) Superheroes save the day and take down the villain. 2) Villain ganged up on by 3 superheroes and mercilessly beaten to death. Police investigation to follow.

 

Now if Superman kept fighting and losing to Lex Luthor alone you would read this headline: "Superman can not defeat Lex Luthor on his own. He needs some outside help." Not necessarily "Let's give Superman some time to defeat Lex Luthor. He keeps coming close, but only a few hundred people die in the process."

 

I think it's pretty obvious who is who in this scenario.

[bobbob1313]

Is Pat Riley Lex Luthor?

[u2roolz]

Is Pat Riley Lex Luthor?

 

No, but I like where your head is at. It's the elusive NBA Championship with a shiny golden ball that looks like a shiny bald head.

 

I'm not sure who Pat Riley would be. I haven't thought that far ahead.

 

(rubs chin) Who has really greasy hair in D.C. Comics?

[bjorn_skurj]

Is Pat Riley Lex Luthor?

No, he is Satan!