sonicshoulder Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 How is this even an NCAA issue? It's heinous. It's horrible. It's completely outside the jurisdiction of the NCAA. Any punishment should be solely directed at the parties involved. And the prestige of the program is already tarnished. Punishing the current football program only punishes innocents. What would that accomplish? Rarely on the college level does a suspension effect the people who caused it....they are usually long gone. If your going to impose sanctions on universities for covering up free tatoos you should probably address decades of child rape swept under the rug. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LouieB Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Close the motherfucker down. Football is way too important, particularly at Penn State. Everyone needs to know it is just a fucking game. The entire Penn State community closed ranks around JoePa. Even his family can't quite deal with it. At some point a university is supposed to be about educating people, not running high priced football programs. Take down the statue, close down the program for a couple years, and let them get back to the central mission of the university, then they can have football again. LouieB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bleedorange Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 To me, it's more of an institutional issue that just so happens to involve the head football coach and a former assistant. It isn't an athletics issue, which is why I question the NCAA's involvement in any kind of sanctions against the football program. For instance, if this had all happened in the back rooms of the Penn State Creamery, would the entire ice cream making department be shut down? Or if this had happened with the head of the theater department (if they have one), would that entire section of the school be shut down? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sonicshoulder Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 To me, it's more of an institutional issue that just so happens to involve the head football coach and a former assistant. It isn't an athletics issue, which is why I question the NCAA's involvement in any kind of sanctions against the football program. For instance, if this had all happened in the back rooms of the Penn State Creamery, would the entire ice cream making department be shut down? Or if this had happened with the head of the theater department (if they have one), would that entire section of the school be shut down? I agree, the president of a university not only allowing but facilitating a pedophile to sodomize numerous 12 year olds on school property is an institutional issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
augurus Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Close the motherfucker down. Football is way too important, particularly at Penn State. Everyone needs to know it is just a fucking game. The entire Penn State community closed ranks around JoePa. Even his family can't quite deal with it. At some point a university is supposed to be about educating people, not running high priced football programs. Take down the statue, close down the program for a couple years, and let them get back to the central mission of the university, then they can have football again. LouieBTo you, it's a game; to millions, it's a game, which is a business, which makes money, and kids go to college to get an education to make money (or at least what's left of people not in the upper classes do). Penn State certainly seems to have some faulty morals and principles at work which are certainly educating the wrong message. And until then, the Penn State students should take a lesson seeing what happens when you're morally bankrupt: you'll continue to get shredded to pieces by the public and lose public endorsements. People lose faith in you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The Inside of Outside Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Close the motherfucker down. Football is way too important, particularly at Penn State. Everyone needs to know it is just a fucking game. The entire Penn State community closed ranks around JoePa. Even his family can't quite deal with it. At some point a university is supposed to be about educating people, not running high priced football programs. Take down the statue, close down the program for a couple years, and let them get back to the central mission of the university, then they can have football again. LouieBAgree. And I will feel badly for those kids who went there to get an education and play football. They will no longer have a team to play for, and they will have to transfer if they want to continue to play college football. The "death penalty" in college sports does impact innocents. In this case, the institution was so morally bankrupt (and some factions continue to be - notice continued support for Paterno, et al. in the PS community) that taking away their sacred cow makes great sense. Get the focus back on education. As a school, they could be up front about getting back to the core mission of the university - to educate young adults. I went to a Penn State-Ohio State game three or so years ago. It struck me that it looked like Penn State was a football team that happened to have a university attached to it (like a number of schools - Alabama, Florida, Ohio State, etc.). I would love for some of these universities to get their priorities realigned as a result of this horrible scandal. That might be something good that could eventually come out of this. The football program is one part of the fabric of the university, not vice-versa. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
caliber66 Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 For instance, if this had all happened in the back rooms of the Penn State Creamery, would the entire ice cream making department be shut down? Or if this had happened with the head of the theater department (if they have one), would that entire section of the school be shut down?Probably? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bleedorange Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 SI.com writer Stewart Mandel hit on the points I was trying to make. Notably: I've maintained for some time now that the NCAA should leave the matter of punishment to more important bodies, in this case the Departments of Justice and Education and the State of Pennsylvania. But in the wake of the Freeh Report there is now considerable pressure for the NCAA to do something severe, even if it means bucking all precedent and protocol. Personally, I think the Death Penalty would accomplish little besides vengeance. While I strongly disagree with Kyle that the actions of Paterno/Spanier/Curley/Schultz were independent of the university -- they made decisions on behalf of the university -- shutting down football at Penn State would not directly punish any of them. The people that would suffer most would be innocent athletes, both in football and other sports; Penn State's opponents, in and outside the Big Ten; and local businesses that depend on Nittany Lions game weekends. It seems to me the people calling for the Death Penalty primarily want to punish the Penn State community for caring too much about football. News flash: We all care too much about football. That warped culture presumably contributed to the cover-up, but it was not the actual crime. If the NCAA feels the need to step in, it needs to come up with a punishment that doesn't bring so much collateral damage. Personally, I'm struggling to come up with one that doesn't seem trite. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
calvino Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I always understood your points, bleedorange - I just don't agree. They covered this up to save the football program - the football program needs to take the hit for it. If someone in the theater department, creamery, or hell someone on the basketball or baseball staff, sexual abused kids - I don't think the university would had covered it up, at least I would hope they wouldn't have - who knows. The reason for the cover up was because it happen in the football program. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jules Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 What the hell is a creamery? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
calvino Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 What the hell is a creamery? http://creamery.psu.edu/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
uncool2pillow Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 They covered this up to save the football program - the football program needs to take the hit for it. If someone in the theater department, creamery, or hell someone on the basketball or baseball staff, sexual abused kids - I don't think the university would had covered it up, at least I would hope they wouldn't have - who knows. The reason for the cover up was because it happen in the football program.This is pretty much where I'm at right now. One could argue that the consequences for those most responsible have already been felt. Sandusky in jail for the rest of this life, Paterno fired and legacy forever tarnished (statue left standing or not), AD and President out. The message should be fairly clear that you don't cover this stuff up. However, since it was all done in the name of protecting the football program, the NCAA should sanction the program just to show the cover up failed to protect the program. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bleedorange Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Another good article from SI.com, addressing the issue and Nick Saban's recent suggestion: So what is the desired outcome here? For football programs to be accountable? Shutting down SMU's program in the '80s didn't stop other schools from paying players. Hammering USC hasn't kept players at other schools from taking money from agents. Nothing about the NCAA's current penalty model suggests it alters undesired behavior in any meaningful way. What about a constructive rather than destructive solution? What about helping victims of child abuse and helping adults identify the signs of abuse so they might help a child and catch predators? That can be done, but it requires money. Fortunately, money is something the Penn State football program has. According to figures the school submitted to the U.S. Department of Education, Penn State's football program took in $72.7 million in revenue versus $19.5 million in expenses during the 2010-11 school year. Saban's idea would pass along the cost to average fans, so that isn't the perfect solution. Ratto's idea would take money currently used to subsidize non-revenue sports at Penn State and might punish those athletes, so it isn't perfect, either. But both ideas offer excellent jumping off points for a discussion about finding a way to make progress after a truly disgusting tragedy. The NCAA shutting down the program would interrupt the academic careers of more than 100 players who were in elementary school when Paterno, Penn State president Graham Spanier, vice president Gary Schultz and athletic director Tim Curley agreed they wouldn't contact law enforcement officials about Sandusky. A shutdown also would cost program employees their jobs -- not wealthy coaches, but secretaries, trainers and other support staff who had nothing to do with the cover-up -- and would harm the athletes in other sports who rely on football to pay for their scholarships. A shutdown also would economically cripple some of the people who work in the hotels, cook in the restaurants and drive the taxis in State College. So why not try to find a solution that doesn't punish those innocent people but still allows for meaningful action? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sonicshoulder Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I'm really glad everyone is now concerned with protecting the university who's president and head coach facilitated a couple decades of child abuse...where were these bleeding hearts when schools were getting shut down for slipping a couple hundred bucks to a recruit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sweet Papa Crimbo Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I'm really glad everyone is now concerned with protecting the university who's president and head coach facilitated a couple decades of child abuse...where were these bleeding hearts when schools were getting shut down for slipping a couple hundred bucks to a recruit. How ironic that Paterno was so sanctimonious when it came to paying players... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ih8music Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 well, 'cause that would be cheating on Football! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The High Heat Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8191027/penn-state-nittany-lions-hit-60-million-fine-4-year-bowl-ban-wins-dating-1998 Yesterday Joe Paterno's statue was put into storage and this morning the sanctions against Penn State were announced. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ih8music Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 With the wins from 1998-2011 vacated, Paterno drops from 409 wins to 298, dropping him from first to 12th on the winningest NCAA football coach list. ouch. so much for his legacy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IRememberDBoon Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 one interesting point i heard last night re: the sanctions affecting kids that werent even at the school when it happened. thats the way sanctions always work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LouieB Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 ouch. so much for his legacy.That was shot anyway. LouieB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ih8music Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 That was shot anyway. LouieB Indeed, but now his coaching legacy has been pretty much wiped out. Not that I'm losing any sleep over it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gogo Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Aside from the very obvious victims in this case, I think one of the groups that is going to take this the hardest will be the players whose college playing careers are now wiped out. Assuming that none of them knew anything about the ongoing abuse, they were kids who, as far as they knew, were playing for a team that had a history of dignity and integrity. Now their wins don't officially exist anymore, and you have to wonder what it's doing to them, knowing that this was happening while they were a part of that program. The player quoted in that ESPN article sounds pretty bitter (about the sanctions), I wonder if that's what a lot of them are experiencing? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bleedorange Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I'll go to SI.com's Stewart Mandel again: And so, for the sins of Joe Paterno, Graham Spanier, Gary Schultz and Tim Curley, the NCAA dropped the hammer on Bill O'Brien, Matt McGloin, Silas Redd and 40 players who won't be able to receive scholarships from Penn State over the next four years (the NCAA stripped the school of 10 scholarships in each of the next four seasons). It assured that the Nittany Lions won't be a contender in the Big Ten for half of a decade -- if not longer -- and that their idol-worshipping fans will no longer cheer for a winner. Justice has been served, assuming your idea of justice for rape victims is to deprive a school of its next four Outback Bowl invitations. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ih8music Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I believe all the players are free to transfer to other schools if they choose to do so. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sonicshoulder Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I'll go to SI.com's Stewart Mandelagain: I'm sure this writer is a really nice guy but has never had to repeatedly walk by a statue of someone who knew his children were being raped and did nothing about it. With all due respect orange what do you think would be a proper punishment for an institution that covered up child molestation and rape all the way up the ranks to president? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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