General Political Thread

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

 

It is really interesting the decline in respect for teachers.

I have a generally favorable view of teachers and the teaching profession that has survived somewhat intact although I have two kids who made it through the Public School system.

For every teacher dedicated to their profession and proficient in their teaching field, there were two who were skating by.

Anecdotally, I can say public schools are not doing their job unless your kids are in GT and AP programs.

My  son has a minor learning disability (mild dysgraphia and mild ADD). His First grade teacher was ready to totally write him off and he was beginning to exhibit behavior problems in class. My wife and I met extensively with the principal, counselors and a testing 'expert'. He was bored and getting more and more frustrated. I thank God that the GT teacher recognized what was going on and pushed the principal to but him into the GT program.

After he graduated with honors from High School and was accepted into the Engineering program at a major University, I wonder what would have happened to him if we simply listened to the 'expert educators'?

[Mr. Heartbreak]

Ever try to deal with 30 six-year-olds at the same time?

 

I think when you say, "For every teacher dedicated to their profession and proficient in their teaching field, there were two who were skating by," that is the textbook definition of "anecdotal." Not really sure how you can know something like this.

 

A big part of the decline for respect of the teaching profession is due to the sense of entitlement among students and their parents, not to mention the rise of parents being "advocates" when their precious Johnny or June is being a total asshole. It's great that you were able to get the help your child needed by pushing for it...but it's very possible that for every child like yours who really needs help from a GT program, there are two or three who are just spoiled little pricks whose parents think they can do no wrong...and guess what, those are the kids whose parents are actually calling the teacher, after hours, on their private home phone, to bitch about this or that. It must be so much fun trying to grade papers at 7:30 at night and being interrupted by strangers calling you at home to bitch at you. I know, because my mother used to go through this all the time, and that was after over 20 years in the field. It wasn't like that in the 70s, 80s or even 90s, but by 2000, the helicopter parents were running the show in education in my home town...bugging teachers, principals, hell, freaking janitors.

 

Believe me, thanks to the "self-esteem" movement - where there are only winners, no losers, and everybody gets a prize no matter how mediocre or outright bad their work is - we have an entire generation of people out there whose parents have protected them from the consequences of their behavior their entire lives. But they are ready to blame the teacher at the drop of a hat when little junior doesn't rise to the top of the class. You could not pay me enough money to be a teacher in today's environment...not because it's a thankless grind, but because of having to deal with all the idiots out there trying to tell you how to do your job.

[KevinG]

For every teacher dedicated to their profession and proficient in their teaching field, there were two who were skating by.

 

 

And this is why we need to rethink the way we value teachers in this country.  If you paid teachers more, the job would become more competitive.  The more competitive the less you would have this "skating by" aspect.  

 

[John Smith]

So, according to this site, the war on terror has cost about $1.5 trillion over 12 years. http://nationalpriorities.org/cost-of/

 

I believe that's less than $15 billion a year (coffee's just kicking in, so my math may be way off here). Paying teachers like doctors -- not to mention CEOs) would cost 20x that. So, where is this money? Again, I'm all for paying me more. But the public will -- rightly, to my mind -- demand reforms in how we pay teachers before we entertain even modest pay increases.

That's actually $125b per year.

 

When I was a kid teachers were respected and admired, in the last few years they have become villanized. Why? My thoughts are that one train of thought wants to paint them as undeserving mooches phoning it in poorly and sucking at the tax payers teats because they tend not to support the people villanizing them. Our local school board, all republicans,!portrayed the teachers as mailing out like bandits for getting a contract with raises below inflation and increasing the portion of their insurance that the teachers pay. Mooches indeed.

[Sir Stewart]

So my mom, who is now retired, has a pension but will never get SS.

 

 

I understand; I'm an acquired taste.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

I understand; I'm an acquired taste.

No, I meant , as in the Schutzstaffel. Not everything is about you, you know.

[Atticus]

thanks to the "self-esteem" movement - where there are only winners, no losers, and everybody gets a prize no matter how mediocre or outright bad their work is - we have an entire generation of people out there whose parents have protected them from the consequences of their behavior their entire lives. 

 

if you put that on a bumper sticker, I'm buying.

[gogo]

My youngest son has a minor learning disability (mild dysgraphia and mild ADD). His First grade teacher was ready to totally write him off and he was beginning to exhibit behavior problems in class. My wife and I met extensively with the principal, counselors and a testing 'expert'. He was bored and getting more and more frustrated. I thank God that the GT teacher recognized what was going on and pushed the principal to but him into the GT program.

 

Another thing to factor in to this equation:  private schools would have had absolutely no reason to keep your son, unless you were paying specifically for special help.  It's easier for them, and makes their test scores look better, etc., to simply not accept students with learning or behavior issues.  Public schools aren't perfect, and yes, parents need to advocate for their children, but those programs are available.

 

I can't tell you how many families I know who started off their kids in Catholic schools because they believed they were so much better than the local public schools, and had to switch when they realized the Catholic schools couldn't accommodate some specific need their child had.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

if you put that on a bumper sticker, I'm buying.

Thanks! As a writer, I am sorely tempted, just to make the sale.

Little wordy for a bumper sticker, but then I always was verbose.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

No, I meant , as in the Schutzstaffel. Not everything is about you, you know.

 

CLOSE THE THREAD...GODWIN'S LAW VIOLATION.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

Ever try to deal with 30 six-year-olds at the same time?

 

I think when you say, "For every teacher dedicated to their profession and proficient in their teaching field, there were two who were skating by," that is the textbook definition of "anecdotal." Not really sure how you can know something like this.

 

A big part of the decline for respect of the teaching profession is due to the sense of entitlement among students and their parents, not to mention the rise of parents being "advocates" when their precious Johnny or June is being a total asshole. It's great that you were able to get the help your child needed by pushing for it...but it's very possible that for every child like yours who really needs help from a GT program, there are two or three who are just spoiled little pricks whose parents think they can do no wrong...and guess what, those are the kids whose parents are actually calling the teacher, after hours, on their private home phone, to bitch about this or that. It must be so much fun trying to grade papers at 7:30 at night and being interrupted by strangers calling you at home to bitch at you. I know, because my mother used to go through this all the time, and that was after over 20 years in the field. It wasn't like that in the 70s, 80s or even 90s, but by 2000, the helicopter parents were running the show in education in my home town...bugging teachers, principals, hell, freaking janitors.

 

Believe me, thanks to the "self-esteem" movement - where there are only winners, no losers, and everybody gets a prize no matter how mediocre or outright bad their work is - we have an entire generation of people out there whose parents have protected them from the consequences of their behavior their entire lives. But they are ready to blame the teacher at the drop of a hat when little junior doesn't rise to the top of the class. You could not pay me enough money to be a teacher in today's environment...not because it's a thankless grind, but because of having to deal with all the idiots out there trying to tell you how to do your job.

 

I don't know whether you were simply using my story as the jumping off point for your screed, but I surely hope you aren't deeming to paint me as one of your offending parents. (I'm assuming you were simply looking for a point to jump in..we've never had any beef).

But when I have my son's first grade teacher tell me at his graduation "we got him through...I'm so glad you stuck to your guns", I can only wonder at what might have been and thank God I am done with the public school system. 

I'm all for paying teachers, but as Hixter cited for his school District in Texas, the pay ain't that bad here. I've got all kinds of opinions and theories about bloated levels of administration (no coach ever gets fired...they are made assistant superintendants) and misplaced priorities, but I can honestly say I am thankful that My kids made it through and have (thus far) excelled.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

I don't know whether you were simply using my story as the jumping off point for your screed, but I surely hope you aren't deeming to paint me as one of your offending parents. (I'm assuming you were simply looking for a point to jump in..we've never had any beef).

I said, "It's great that you were able to get the help your child needed by pushing for it." What else do ya want?

But meanwhile, there are a shit ton of parents out there (not you) whose children are really being little jerks, and yet their parents defend the brats at every turn. Man, whatever happened to "Shut up and listen to your teacher?"  It's no wonder kids today have little respect for authority. When I was a kid, I never won in any kind of conflict or disagreement with a teacher, because my parents would always take the teachers' side against me. I wish more parents were like mine; the world would be a better place.

[bjorn_skurj]

The easiest way for voters (most of whom are parents) to understand the financial situation of teachers would be to take a look at the faculty parking lots of their kids' schools. And I'm not even a parent. The idea that they are overpaid or entitled is ridiculous.

 

 

Every state is different and communities differ within states. I would say in the Mid-Hudson Valley region of New York State, public school teaching jobs are among the most stable, the most well-paying and the most blessed with benefits. Teachers here enjoy a pretty strong union and, in general, drive nicer cars than many of the parents of their students. Objectively speaking, are they overpaid? I don't think so, but the 3-5 percent annual property tax hike school budgets command is not easy for many homeowners to take.

[bjorn_skurj]

And here's what our Congress-Man has to say about Syria:

 

http://www.kingstonx.com/2013/09/01/congressman-gibson-says-hell-vote-no-on-syria-attack/

[Mr. Heartbreak]

Every state is different and communities differ within states. I would say in the Mid-Hudson Valley region of New York State, public school teaching jobs are among the most stable, the most well-paying and the most blessed with benefits. Teachers here enjoy a pretty strong union and, in general, drive nicer cars than many of the parents of their students. Objectively speaking, are they overpaid? I don't think so, but the 3-5 percent annual property tax hike school budgets command is not easy for many homeowners to take.

Same was true in CT, where I grew up. Stable career, strong union, and good results: kids graduating from public school and going on to Ivy League schools. Contrast that with other states, especially as you head south and west. Politicians are all for vouchers, and want to avoid sending their kids to public schools, most of which are underfunded and, therefore, crappy.

[bjorn_skurj]

You do get what you pay for ...

[uncool2pillow]

A randomly organized reply to lots of ideas addressed here:

 

Bad at math, esepecially when lots of zeroes are involved and I'm sleepy 

 

I feel like I get a helluva lot of respect from kids, families, and the community in general.  As much, if not more, than my teachers got, in general.  

 

I think technology is making parents a lot more demanding as it is "customers" in all fields.  If amazon.com can tell me what books, movies, and CDs I want, why can't schools customize their education to my child's needs.  I try to use all of the tools available to me to communicate with them.  I'm sure many feel I over communicate and end up missing out on the really important stuff.

 

My feeling about the self-esteem movement is mixed.  I certainly think the schools are much more sensitive to the emotional needs of students in a very good way than they were 30 years ago.  On the other hand, I don't need to see so many meaningless certificates, graduations, trophies, etc.  However, if the schools are being victimized by the self-esteem movement, we may only have ourselves to blame.  I think it is a movement driven by many educational professionals.

 

I don't buy that increased pay alone will increase the quality of teachers significantly.  There are, I imagine, a lot of people who get into law, medicine, or finance in order to do well financially, but they don't make it.  They're not bright enough, hard working enough, they just don't produce results.  They stay at low levels of pay or move on to other fields.  Results in education are admittedly much more nebulous and hard to nail down.  But there are ineffective teachers out there and there's not much of a mechanism to encourage bad teachers to improve or leave the field.  I think the frustration of being an ineffective teacher does drive many out, but not all.  In my experience, most teachers who are fired aren't fired for being ineffective.  I work in a great school and about 90% of the teachers are good to excellent, but we just kind of have to accept the others.  We push, prod, counsel, mentor and help, but that takes us away from serving our students as best we can and usually has little impact on those poor teachers.

[brownie]

For every teacher dedicated to their profession and proficient in their teaching field, there were two who were skating by.

How dare you.  Really.  How dare you.

 

I have been teaching high school science for 10 years.  Before that, I spent nearly 20 years in industry, as an actual practicing scientist.

 

I have never worked as hard in my life as I have as a teacher.   But that amount of work is not sustainable.  I think people who think teachers are "skating by" don't want teachers, they want robots.

[uncool2pillow]

I didn't see the 1:2 ratio.  In my experience that's a crock of shit.

[Doug C]

I have taught high school social studies, mainly Advanced Placement psychology, for 28 years. I have 8 years remaining. If we want to improve education and teacher quality in America, we need to look to Finland, South Korea, Singapore and Canada. I have followed the news and research regarding their teacher education systems for years. This recent article does a nice job of comparing them, Finland specifically, with America. I urge all of you to read it. It is about 24 paragraphs, but well worth it. If we could realize that other nations have worthwhile ideas, rather than believing that nobody does it better, then education (and health care, among other areas) could see real improvement. Thank you for taking the time to read the article.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/05/15/what-if-finlands-great-teachers-taught-in-u-s-schools-not-what-you-think/

[uncool2pillow]

A good article.  It also points out that the U.S. is not Finland.  Our higher poverty rates, child well-being, and multicultural (specifically multilingual) society present huge challenges to American schools.  It's also interesting that the article goes to great lengths to argue better teachers are a small part of the puzzle, then praises (justifiably) Finland's teach prep system.  It also points out another strength of the Finland system is teacher autonomy.  How important can that autonomy be if the system is what makes Finland great and not the effectiveness of the individual teachers?

 

As I was reading that article, I wondered about Finnish special education.  The bureaucracy of the special education system is absolutely maddening.  Those teachers are incredibly overworked to monitor and assess student progress that they have hardly the energy, time or resources to actually delivery the instruction that will improve those assessments.  I found this interesting article.

 

http://hechingerreport.org/content/rethinking-special-education-in-the-u-s_5003/

 

Bottom line: The Finns have a great system and we can learn a lot from it, but we have to ultimately recognizes that many of our schools' greatest challenges are our nation's greatest challenges and while the schools can and should improve, they will always reflect the society to which they belong.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

How dare you.  Really.  How dare you.

 

I have been teaching high school science for 10 years.  Before that, I spent nearly 20 years in industry, as an actual practicing scientist.

 

I have never worked as hard in my life as I have as a teacher.   But that amount of work is not sustainable.  I think people who think teachers are "skating by" don't want teachers, they want robots.

 

Don't internalize a statement not made about you.

[brownie]

Don't internalize a statement not made about you.

Okay, I admit that I saw red when I'd read that statement and responded rashly.

 

More reasoned response:

 

Your statement implies that more teachers are skating by than not.  I just don't see it.  Not in my school, anyway (a public school of about 1300 students), nor in the other high school in my town which is about the same size.  We all work like dogs.  Math, science, English, social studies, etc.  Maybe there are a few who skate by, they are a few.  I would have to think hard to actually name one.   

 

What a lot of people don't seem to realize is that for a teacher to be all things to all students (which is what the current climate out there seems to encourage), a teacher can have no life outside of work.   Those who are not teachers cannot imagine how mentally and emotionally exhausting this job is, aside from all the paperwork.  That level is just unsustainable over the long term.

[lost highway]

Worst job ever to skate by in, ever.  There were people manning a cubicle in the lower ranks of the marketing company where my girlfriend used to work who made $20k a year more than I did who didn't care about their job and weren't particularly good at it.  There are plenty of well paying white collar jobs where someone with a degree and interview skills can spend half their day on youtube, and half their day answering emails.

 

Teaching you're on your feet the entire time, with a brief chance to answer emails with one hand while you lunch with another.  Skating is not an option.

[Dick Ctionary]

dra·mat·ic

adjective \drə-ˈma-tik\

 

1   : of or relating to the drama dramatic actor>

2

a : suitable to or characteristic of the drama dramatic attempt to escape>

 

b : striking in appearance or effect dramatic pause>

3

of an opera singer : having a powerful voice and a declamatory style — compare lyric