Politics 2014

[Mr. Heartbreak]

and this is kinda of big deal too:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/17/obama-cuba_n_6340550.html 

Right away, Marco Rubio is bitching about it..and the comments sections in the online articles are full of comments about "commies" and "Chairman Maobama." This country really has a lot of retrogressive citizens...

[Hixter]

Right away, Marco Rubio is bitching about it.

I know what you mean:

 

“Today’s policy announcement is misguided and fails to understand the nature of the regime in Cuba that has exerted its authoritarian control over the Cuban people for 55 years."

 

“It is a fallacy that Cuba will reform just because the American President believes that if he extends his hand in peace that the Castro brothers suddenly will unclench their fists."

 

“The United States has just thrown the Cuban regime an economic lifeline.  With the collapse of the Venezuelan economy, Cuba is losing its main benefactor, but will now receive the support of the United States, the greatest democracy in the world. This is a reward that a totalitarian regime does not deserve and this announcement only perpetuates the Castro regime’s decades of repression." 

 

“Today’s regulatory changes, which are clearly intended to circumvent the intent and spirit of U.S. law and the U.S. Congress, present a false narrative about Cuba that suggests that the U.S., and not the regime, is responsible for their economic failure."

 

“To suggest that Cuba should be taken off the list of state sponsors of terrorism is alarming while Cuba harbors American fugitives, such as Joanne Chesimard, who is on the FBI’s list of Most Wanted Terrorists for murdering New Jersey State Trooper Werner Foerster and despite Cuba’s colluding with North Korea to smuggle jets, missile batteries, and arms through the Panama Canal."

 

“When the new Congress convenes in January, I urge incoming Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Bob Corker to hold hearings on this dramatic and mistaken change of policy.”

Oops, my bad, that was a Democratic senator.

 

[KevinG]

Right away, Marco Rubio is bitching about it..and the comments sections in the online articles are full of comments about "commies" and "Chairman Maobama." This country really has a lot of retrogressive citizens...

 

I have been reading a lot about Rubio's comments.  They don't seem to make much sense.  It is not like the 54 year embargo has ever worked and we have better relationships with countries with far worse records on human rights and treatment of its citizens.  And this has the potential to open up Cuba as a huge market, creating jobs and moving industry forward.  It would be a good thing for the economy.   

 

As for the comments in the article, it is really unfortunate.  The one thing the internet has done has given people a platform to say whatever damn fool thing they want and have other damn fools read it and believe it.  I wonder what these people would say when Nixon began normalizing relationships with China.    

 

 

I know what you mean:

 

Oops, my bad, that was a Democratic senator.

 

 

So what? He is wrong as well, for many of the same reasons  Rubio is wrong.  Just because someone is from one party doesn't automatically make them right or wrong.  

[Hixter]

we have better relationships with countries with far worse records on human rights and treatment of its citizens

Ones less than a hundred miles from our shores who were pointing nuclear weapons at us?

 

Oh well, this can't possibly turn out any worse than the pathetic "reset" of our relations with Russia. Maybe I'll even get some nice cigars out of it.

[tinnitus photography]

i think that the range of nuclear weapons isn't really an issue these days.

[KevinG]

Ones less than a hundred miles from our shores who were pointing nuclear weapons at us?

 

Cuba pointed missiles at us in 1963, three years after the embargo started, so it is not like the embargo had any affect on that.  And it is not like they have weapons pointing at us now. 

 

Also we have normalized relations with countries who are a far bigger threat to our security then Cuba ever will be.  

 

 

Oh well, this can't possibly turn out any worse than the pathetic "reset" of our relations with Russia. 

 

And I am not even sure what this means, or is referring to.  Nor, am I sure it is germane to the discussion.  

 

But listen, this is a hold over from the cold war.  And it is just not feasible to continue to think that in in our foreign policy.  We live in a much different world.  The embargo has not worked for 5 decades.  Why do you think keeping the embargo going on will continue to work?  

[Hixter]

i think that the range of nuclear weapons isn't really an issue these days.

Actually, it still is. The flight time for a missile from Russia or China is about 20 or 30 minutes; a launch from a closer location allows for less reaction time. The game plan in nuclear war is to destroy the other guy's warheads before his can destroy yours, so closer is still better. There's a reason that Russian missile subs patrol not far off our shores.

[KevinG]

Actually, it still is. The flight time for a missile from Russia or China is about 20 or 30 minutes; a launch from a closer location allows for less reaction time. The game plan in nuclear war is to destroy the other guy's warheads before his can destroy yours, so closer is still better. There's a reason that Russian missile subs patrol not far off our shores.

 

Russia, China, Cuba.  Two of these three countries have nuclear missiles.  Two of these three countries we have trade relationships with.

 

I am baffled by this line of logic you are presenting.    

[Hixter]

And it is not like they have weapons pointing at us now. 

If you've been paying attention to the news, you'll notice that Russia is back to their Cold War antics and that includes recent plans to reopen/reactivate installations in Cuba.

 

And I am not even sure what this means, or is referring to.  Nor, am I sure it is germane to the discussion.  

At the beginning of President Obama's first term, his administration famously promised to "reset"Russia-American relations. It failed miserably and Russia is now back to their Cold War selves, threatening the world with nuclear weapons and resuming provocative, offensive military actions. With the ruble in free-fall, who knows what the next few months will bring. Things could get ugly.

 

 

But listen, this is a hold over from the cold war.  And it is just not feasible to continue to think that in in our foreign policy.  We live in a much different world.

The Cold War is alive and well in 2014.

 

Why do you think keeping the embargo going on will continue to work? 

The Cubans are desperate to have the embargo lifted, so lifting it will aid a despicable, repressive regime. Doesn't seem like the right thing to do if the Castro brothers don't change their ways, and they've shown little willingness to do so over the last 50 years.

[uncool2pillow]

If you've been paying attention to the news, you'll notice that Russia is back to their Cold War antics and that includes recent plans to reopen/reactivate installations in Cuba.

 

True, but the tanking of their economy and their currency will change their tune sooner rather than later, I think. Putin may dig in his heels, but I think he'll figure it out.

[lost highway]

I can't fathom how Cuba is going to be more of a threat to us when we are on speaking terms. When people get upset about our president speaking to othet leaders it seems weird.

 

Additionally wouldn't it be strategically helpful to make Cuba sweet on us while Russia is on the ropes from the current oil prices?

[tinnitus photography]

Actually, it still is. The flight time for a missile from Russia or China is about 20 or 30 minutes; a launch from a closer location allows for less reaction time. The game plan in nuclear war is to destroy the other guy's warheads before his can destroy yours, so closer is still better. There's a reason that Russian missile subs patrol not far off our shores.

whatever, Skunk Baxter.

[tinnitus photography]

Somewhere there's Russian Wilco board w/ its very own Hixter.

 

At the beginning of Putin's first term, his administration famously promised to "reset"Russia-American relations. It failed miserably and America is now back to their Cold War selves, threatening the world with nuclear weapons and resuming provocative, offensive military actions. 

[Hixter]

True, but the tanking of their economy and their currency will change their tune sooner rather than later, I think.

Or maybe it'll cause him to act more irrationally. Only time will tell.

 

I can't fathom how Cuba is going to be more of a threat to us when we are on speaking terms. 

I don't think anybody has said that they'll be more of a threat, it's just that it seems like bad form to relax the embargo when they've done nothing to earn it. North Korea wouldn't be more of a threat if we normalized relations, but that doesn't mean that we should make a lopsided deal with them.

 

whatever, Skunk Baxter.

I was just watching some old Doobie Brothers videos, so I'll take that as a compliment. It doesn't change the fact that I was correct in my post about the advantage that quick strikes have in nuclear warfare. There's a reason that the U.S., China and Russia are spending billions on hypersonic craft/missiles: SPEED KILLS.

 

Somewhere there's Russian Wilco board w/ its very own Hixter.

Howdy, comrade! Can I buy you a tasty beverage?

[KevinG]

If you've been paying attention to the news, you'll notice that Russia is back to their Cold War antics and that includes recent plans to reopen/reactivate installations in Cuba.

 

Well, there was a bunch of new stories from July of this year that there was plans to reopen a Soviet Era Spy base back in July.  But from what I can tell this was a lot of chatter stemming from one news report and as of today the station remains closed.  And I can't find any other credible news report that mentions any other plans of that nature.  So I guess if this is a big concern, please do all of us a favor and provide evidence.  

 

The Cold War is alive and well in 2014.

 

Ugh, this again.  I remember you saying the same thing when Putin invaded Ukraine, and sure whatever.  But just because the Cold War is alive and well, does that mean we have to retread all of the old ways of thinking?  Did that think work?  We live in a far different world then we did 60, 50, 40 years ago.  Hell it it is quite a bit different then when the Soviet Union fell.  Why are you so sure the old cold war mentality is going to work?

 

 

 

The Cubans are desperate to have the embargo lifted, so lifting it will aid a despicable, repressive regime. Doesn't seem like the right thing to do if the Castro brothers don't change their ways, and they've shown little willingness to do so over the last 50 years.

 

That is my argument, with the embargo in place, nothing had changed.  There was no indication that the government in Cuba was going to change.  We keep on doing the the same thing and expecting a different result.  That is the definition of insanity.  

[lost highway]

We've seen historically how for some countries, economic shifts lead to political and ideological shifts.  In some cases countries grow out of communism because of market incentives.

 

Cuba is one of the only countries in the new world that we don't do business with (them and Venezuela right?).  It's a country filled with a colorful culture, a characteristic cuisine, excellent agricultural zones, and a strong need to update some of their technological infrastructure.  Opening that up to trade with the U.S. can only benefit us economically and culturally, and will likely benefit their citizens economically.

[KevinG]

We've seen historically how for some countries, economic shifts lead to political and ideological shifts.  In some cases countries grow out of communism because of market incentives.

 

Cuba is one of the only countries in the new world that we don't do business with (them and Venezuela right?).  It's a country filled with a colorful culture, a characteristic cuisine, excellent agricultural zones, and a strong need to update some of their technological infrastructure.  Opening that up to trade with the U.S. can only benefit us economically and culturally, and will likely benefit their citizens economically.

 

It also should be noted that a majority of Americans and an overwhelming number of young Cuban exiles now support lifting of the embargo and normalizing relations with Cuba.  

 

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/12/17/371411659/polls-show-cuban-american-view-on-u-s-cuba-relations-is-nuanced

[John Smith]

Wrong wrong wrong, when will you realize that almost all of you are wrong all the time.

[NoJ]

You offer a well supported argument Smithy.

[Doug C]

You offer a well supported argument Smithy.

 

Wrong wrong wrong, when will you realize that almost all of you are wrong all the time.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

As a Florida resident, all I can say is "About freaking time." Seems ridiculous, especially when we have some kind of relations with China, but not a country that's like 50 feet away.

[KevinG]

As a Florida resident, all I can say is "About freaking time." Seems ridiculous, especially when we have some kind of relations with China, but not a country that's like 50 feet away.

 

I have of yet, not heard a really good argument of why this is a bad idea.  The way we treated Cuba for the past 50 years did nothing to change their policies and there was no indication that by continuing the same policy of isolating Cuba from the US was going to change anything.  Especially when most of the rest of the world is just fine dealing with Cuba.  Yes, the Cuban government has some deplorable human rights violations against its own people.  But if that were a criteria for not having relations with a nation, there would be many other countries we would not do business with.  

 

But again this all seems another case of whatever Obama is for the Right has to be against (for the most part, Rand Paul, notably is ok with the deal).  Also, like the immigration executive order, this has been blown out of proportion.  The embargo has not been lifted, people cannot start planning their honeymoons in Havana, Cuban cigars are not going to be sold at Walmart.  We are just beginning the steps to normalize relations with a country that is 90 miles away.     

 

And course, I am not going to convince anyone of anything.  Even when IMHO they are so completely wrong, but that is par for the course I guess.  

 

So anyone want to talk about what complete D-bags North Korea is being?  And what wimps Sony is being? Maybe that is one issue were we can all get along.  

[NoJ]

Sony should "allow" hackers to steal that flick. After all, everybody in the world knows Sony's system security is made of swiss cheese. That would be hilarious.

[Hixter]

Sony should "allow" hackers to steal that flick.

They should do a deal with Apple and release a free rental on iTunes. Sort of like the recent U2 album.

[KevinG]

You know, I really hate to bring up Cuba again, but I found this Op-Ed in the New York Times from October, which had spelled out the reasoning why we should begin normalizing relationships with Cuba.  Which refutes the claim that the current Cuban regime has done nothing to change their ways in the last fifty years.  

 

Anyway, here is the op-ed.  Interesting read, especially when you notice the date.  

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/12/opinion/sunday/end-the-us-embargo-on-cuba.html?_r=0