Politics 2015

[lost highway]

Percentages are a funny thing. A .030 batting average won't cut it if you're not a pitcher, but if you had a 3% chance of winning the lottery you'd buy tickets every week. And you know what's even more important to me than winning millions of dollars? My life.

Exactly.

Yeah, I can just let 97 of my fellow Americans get shot down so the other 3 assholes go down in a legally defensible manner. Quite a lottery!

[Hixter]

Yeah, I can just let 97 of my fellow Americans get shot down so the other 3 assholes go down in a legally defensible manner.

Or you can remove those 3 people's right to defend themselves and reduce the number of survivors to zero.

[Atticus]

That's easier to say than to live with. Good news is you won't have to. This terrible story about intruders and your loved children is exactly the same one gun advocates keep imagining over and over.

 

I don't keep a gun in our house but I would live with myself just fine if I killed an intruder in order to protect my baby. This is not an intellectual exercise, it is a genetic, evolutionary impulse.

[Hixter]

This is not an intellectual exercise, it is a genetic, evolutionary impulse.

Absolutely. Self-protection is our most basic, fundamental instinct.

[calvino]

Would it matter if the intruder is armed or not armed? 

 

Curious - is one taught in gun school to shoot at any intruder, whether the intruder is armed or not? Does one look for gun first or ask if the intruder if they are armed or tell the intruder that you are armed?

[Hixter]

Would it matter if the intruder is armed or not armed?

 

Curious - is one taught in gun school to shoot at any intruder, whether the intruder is armed or not? Does one look for gun first or ask if the intruder if they are armed or tell the intruder that you are armed?

There are a million variables to process in mere seconds, but it doesn't really matter if the intruder is armed. You're basically going to process the manner and time of entry (smashed window, open door, middle of the night) and try to make some sort of ID (young kid, large masked man, neighbor, police officer) and then based on your position determine whether or not it's best to run, hide or shoot. It's a lot to process, but the human brain is very, very good at it.

[calvino]

So that is what is taught in gun school --- process the situation.

 

 

I am assuming the law, in the vast many states, that any intruder, armed or not armed, is a 'legal' target.

[Hixter]

So that is what is taught in gun school --- process the situation.

 

 

I am assuming the law, in the vast many states, that any intruder, armed or not armed, is a 'legal' target.

I've never been to "gun school." My only training was in the Army and a healthy helping of common sense.

 

I think you're within your rights to shoot any intruder who has illegally entered your home. Again, common sense prevails. But I don't think a court would convict you for shooting someone who has illegally entered your home.

[calvino]

I didn't mean anything by the "gun school" jargon -- I just mean classes in gun self defense. But one doesn't have to take any classes like that to own a gun, correct?

 

Again I am not baiting here - just curious --- I have never owned a gun. But I think if I ever decide to get one to protect my family, I would take some classes and was wondering what is taught in those classes.

 

I brought this up, because of the whole home invasion stuff.

 

And again I am not baiting - but I am guessing what was taught about guns in the arm forces is different than what is taught in a self defense/home invasion class -- though I could be wrong about that too - since I have never been in the armed forces.

[Hixter]

I don't mean anything by the "gun school" jargon -- I just mean classes in gun self defense. But one doesn't have to take any classes like that to own a gun, correct?

 

Again I am not baiting here - just curious --- I have never owned a gun. But I think if I ever decide to get one to protect my family, I would take some classes and was wondering what is taught in those classes.

No training is required to purchase/possess a firearm, but training in the safe handling of it would be a very good idea. It could be a friend or a teacher in a classroom, but everyone should know how to safely load, use and store a firearm.

[Vacant Horizon]

Common sense is the problem.  Anyone you deem entering illegally should be shot!?

 

For the hell of it I did some stats.  Using conservative estimates of the number of home invasions reported and the US population, chances of being shot in a home invasion is .023%.  This is just from the raw data.  The numbers get a lot more interesting when other variables are considered.  No one needs a gun.  The risks far out weigh the actual advantage.  

[calvino]

No training is required to purchase/possess a firearm, but training in the safe handling of it would be a very good idea. It could be a friend or a teacher in a classroom, but everyone should know how to safely load, use and store a firearm.

 

 

What about classroom training on shooting one?

 

Grant it, you can buy a bunch of rounds and go to range and have shooting practice -- but is that training one to properly own a gun or how just aim a gun?

[Hixter]

Common sense is the problem. Anyone you deem entering illegally should be shot!?

 

For the hell of it I did some stats. Using conservative estimates of the number of home invasions reported and the US population, chances of being shot in a home invasion is .023%. This is just from the raw data. The numbers get a lot more interesting when other variables are considered. No one needs a gun. The risks far out weigh the actual advantage.

First of all, I think you've greatly overestimated the number of home invasion shootings. But that said, yes, I think anyone illegally entering my home should be worried about being shot and I may very well do so.

[Hixter]

What about classroom training on shooting one?

 

Grant it, you can buy a bunch of rounds and go to range and have shooting practice -- but is that training one to properly own a gun or how just aim a gun?

Any training is always good. People should know how to aim, fire, load, unload, carry, store and clean their firearms.

 

Everyone should know when it's OK to shoot someone and when it's not, but common sense is the biggest determinant. Let's face it, the overwhelming majority of us aren't murderers and wouldn't even consider shooting someone unless it were a grave emergency.

[lost highway]

I don't keep a gun in our house but I would live with myself just fine if I killed an intruder in order to protect my baby. This is not an intellectual exercise, it is a genetic, evolutionary impulse.

You're half right here. It is an intellectual exercise because you're theorizing what you would hypothetically do in the worst imaginable situation which luckily has not happened. Where you're right is when you say you have an evolutionary impulse to protect your family.

 

Fact is, we can all stay up late imagining some situation where some bastard is a threat to our loved ones. Hell, play the fear game long enough and I can worry about someone raping my wife and making a hat out of my dog. These thoughts don't come from my normal workaday consciousness. I'm of the opinion that they aren't my best thoughts for informing what kind of legislature I'd like to see in my country.

 

I can be that guy and prepare myself for that nightmare scenario, regularly take the locked box down from the shelf in the coat closet to check the magazine in a 9mm. That's probably not the kind of thinking that makes me the happiest, healthiest member of my family, or of my community. I'm not putting that kind of energy out for a reason.

 

I don't know you, but I respectfully suggest there's a reason you don't already have a gun in your home.

 

I guess what I'm saying is our worst fears aren't often realistic and there's a price to pay when we devote our energy into preparing for them. Statistically our families are safest if we don't own a gun and we quit driving.

[kidsmoke]

I like what you've said, lost highway. Makes a lot of sense from my own life experiences.

[Hixter]

I can be that guy and prepare myself for that nightmare scenario, regularly take the locked box down from the shelf in the coat closet to check the magazine in a 9mm. 

 

I guess what I'm saying is our worst fears aren't often realistic and there's a price to pay when we devote our energy into preparing for them

I see where you're coming from, but it's not as if people are spending their days consumed with fear and frantically checking the preparations that they've made. It's more of a Boy Scout "be prepared" sort of thing. Keep a loaded 12-gauge handy in the unlikely event of a break-in. Install smoke alarms and carbon monoxide detectors in the unlikely event of a fire. Carry a seatbelt cutter and window breaker on your keychain in the unlikely event of becoming trapped in a submerged car. (I have one of these: http://www.amazon.com/resqme-Original-Keychain-Escape-Orange/dp/B0042VTYXM/)

[Vacant Horizon]

If you come into my house with a weapon and my baby girl is there, I have no moral or ethical issue with you getting dead.

 

 

Man, you guys are quick to kill.

[Vacant Horizon]

First of all, I think you've greatly overestimated the number of home invasion shootings. But that said, yes, I think anyone illegally entering my home should be worried about being shot and I may very well do so.

 

So that makes the probability even lower.  Point being, you will never be invaded by an armed intruder, much less in circumstances that you are in a position to actually do something.  However, the risk of a shooting/death are much greater if you have a gun in the house, etc.   

 

Again, I'll bet the shooter in the article knew the intruders and was waiting to kill.  

[Vacant Horizon]

You're half right here. It is an intellectual exercise because you're theorizing what you would hypothetically do in the worst imaginable situation which luckily has not happened. Where you're right is when you say you have an evolutionary impulse to protect your family.

 

Fact is, we can all stay up late imagining some situation where some bastard is a threat to our loved ones. Hell, play the fear game long enough and I can worry about someone raping my wife and making a hat out of my dog. These thoughts don't come from my normal workaday consciousness. I'm of the opinion that they aren't my best thoughts for informing what kind of legislature I'd like to see in my country.

 

I can be that guy and prepare myself for that nightmare scenario, regularly take the locked box down from the shelf in the coat closet to check the magazine in a 9mm. That's probably not the kind of thinking that makes me the happiest, healthiest member of my family, or of my community. I'm not putting that kind of energy out for a reason.

 

I don't know you, but I respectfully suggest there's a reason you don't already have a gun in your home.

 

I guess what I'm saying is our worst fears aren't often realistic and there's a price to pay when we devote our energy into preparing for them. Statistically our families are safest if we don't own a gun and we quit driving.

 

'Evolutionary' and 'genetic' are floating signifiers for ideology.  Much like 'common sense'.  Not that this urge isn't 'real' and 'causal'.  With this in mind, I think it through and decide not to own a gun because the probability of me actually having to or getting to use it is 0%.  The probability that my child, me, family member, other gets hurt/dies in an accident or invasion is higher and more significant.  The other aspect of this is that the gun debate must look at the root causes of violence.  People don't grow up wanting to kill other people, unless they are sociopaths or socialized to do so. Not to mention the gun fetish we seem to have in the US.

[Vacant Horizon]

You're half right here. It is an intellectual exercise because you're theorizing what you would hypothetically do in the worst imaginable situation which luckily has not happened. Where you're right is when you say you have an evolutionary impulse to protect your family.

 

Fact is, we can all stay up late imagining some situation where some bastard is a threat to our loved ones. Hell, play the fear game long enough and I can worry about someone raping my wife and making a hat out of my dog. These thoughts don't come from my normal workaday consciousness. I'm of the opinion that they aren't my best thoughts for informing what kind of legislature I'd like to see in my country.

 

I can be that guy and prepare myself for that nightmare scenario, regularly take the locked box down from the shelf in the coat closet to check the magazine in a 9mm. That's probably not the kind of thinking that makes me the happiest, healthiest member of my family, or of my community. I'm not putting that kind of energy out for a reason.

 

I don't know you, but I respectfully suggest there's a reason you don't already have a gun in your home.

 

I guess what I'm saying is our worst fears aren't often realistic and there's a price to pay when we devote our energy into preparing for them. Statistically our families are safest if we don't own a gun and we quit driving.

 

Quit driving!  Right on.  Also, quit eating crap and exercise, as one of the highest causes of death is heart disease. Almost totally avoidable by diet Alas, our society makes that almost impossible.  

[Atticus]

Man, you guys are quick to kill.

 

1. Not sure what group you've decided to throw me in with "you guys"

 

2. Don't have a gun in the house, haven't lived in a home with a gun in it since leaving for college in 1990.

 

3. Have spent zero time thinking about killing an intruder in my home until reading this thread and considering how I'd feel under several different hypotheticals.

 

4. Have no desire to kill anyone.

 

5. Have no gun "fetish," spend zero time thinking about guns. Too busy thinking about guitar pedals.

 

6. I have no problem with someone risking death as a part of the social contract if he or she decides to put the lives of children at risk by breaking into a home with a weapon in tow.

[Hixter]

Man, you guys are quick to kill.

When it comes down to killing or being killed, I'll always choose the former.

 

Maybe the gun-toting person who smashes their way into my home in the middle of the night is just really eager to give me a foot massage, but I'm not going to take any chances and I'll try to give them a chest full of #4 buckshot every time.

[LouieB]

Clearly some people are more paranoid than others.

 

LouieB

[twoshedsjackson]

Maybe the gun-toting person who smashes their way into my home in the middle of the night is just really eager to give me a foot massage, but I'm not going to take any chances and I'll try to give them a chest full of #4 buckshot every time.

I'm going to assume you only had one free hand with which to type that.