Politics 2016 (election edition)

[Doctor B]

Are you really making this a gun control or gay issue? This is an Islamic extremist, who the authorities could have stopped but did not, committing terrorist murder in the US. Why do you bend over backwards to keep from acknowledging the truth? You guys call everyone a racist at the drop of a hat but refuse to call these nut jobs what they really are: anti liberal, anti women, anti Jews, anti gay, anti West, etc. If you guys were alive in 1941, you would have blamed Pearl Harbor on anti- Asian rhetoric.....

[lost highway]

It depends on what you mean by "these guys". If these guys are the people who shoot up planned parenthood or gay night clubs because they're armed religious fanatics, I'll say you're right they're terrorists. What I won't do is lump all Christians or Muslims into one category or tolerate a candidate who attempts to do so.

[uncool2pillow]

I've got no problem lumping all the religious extremists together. They cannot accept others' dissenting views, beliefs, or lifestyles and therefore feel empowered to kill them. I am a Christian who has vast respect for Islam, but ALL religions have extremist wings, even Buddhism.

 

 

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[KevinG]

Are you really making this a gun control or gay issue? This is an Islamic extremist, who the authorities could have stopped but did not, committing terrorist murder in the US. Why do you bend over backwards to keep from acknowledging the truth? You guys call everyone a racist at the drop of a hat but refuse to call these nut jobs what they really are: anti liberal, anti women, anti Jews, anti gay, anti West, etc. If you guys were alive in 1941, you would have blamed Pearl Harbor on anti- Asian rhetoric.....

Jesus, let's get facts straight. There is so much right wing hyperbole and half truths here it is hard to take you seriously.

 

First off he was on the FBI watchlist, while on the watchlist he did nothing illegal. Suspicous yes, illegal no. In this country you can't arrest someone who has done nothing wrong. As much as some people want it to be, being a Muslim is not a crime. So to put this at the feet of law enforcement is ridiculous and an insult to our Constitution and law enforcement officials everywhere. But of course while on the watchlist he bought firearms legally. But nevermind that fact.

 

Yes this guy is anti everything you mentioned. I don't think anyone is denying that. But what is not a representation of the Muslim faith. Just as the guy who shot up the abortion clinic is not a representation of the Christian faith. They are both individuals who where radicalized by a deep misunderstanding of their respective faiths. Islam has certain portions of its faith that are anti homosexual, women etc. Just as almost every major religion does. But you can't define the whole religion for the actions of a few. That is what Trump is doing.

 

And your Pearl Harbor comment is truly asinine, and it shows you lack of understanding of Pearl Harbor and this tradgey. I guess if we are playing stupid hypotheticals, you would have interned 11 thousand Japanese just because of their heritage after the attack on Pearl Harbor.

[lost highway]

 I guess if we are playing stupid hypotheticals, you would have interned 11 thousand Japanese just because of their heritage after the attack on Pearl Harbor.

 

Well played.

[John Smith]

Im curious, who in this discussion was making this about gun control? Uncool2pillow? I didn't think so, but hey my reading comprehension is not so great.  

[Blackberry Rust]

Gun control has worked in Australia in light of the Port Arthur Massacre of 1996 - gun fatalities are way down from what they were prior to that. Of course, it didn't prevent the hostage seige and two deaths in Sydney at the end of 2014. Both this, the Bataclan and the Pulse nightclub tragedy are all aligned to the same thing (irrespective of gun law tightening): they are the work of disenfranchised, lonely fools who couple themselves up with some demented religious and geopolitical ideology. 

 

The primary issue is religious extremism across the board. Whether it's this particular cretin in Florida, the self-sworn discipline of the Knights Templar in Norway a few years ago or Buddhist monks blowing themselve up in Cambodia. 

[lost highway]

Im curious, who in this discussion was making this about gun control? Uncool2pillow? I didn't think so, but hey my reading comprehension is not so great.  

 

Yeah, it seemed to be more of an iteration of the old: Right says, "You're all so PC you can't say Muslim when you're talking about terrorists," and Left says, "Yeah, we can, but Muslim isn't the point, there are 1.7 billion followers of the faith and the overwhelming majority are peaceful people."

 

If you want to play "Freebird" I can ask the gun enthusiasts if they feel they're the victims of tyranny since they've lost their right to carry box cutters on a plane, but then again that conversation seldom goes anywhere new.

[Tweedling]

I wish the media would spend more time on the Muslim people in AND outside the US denouncing this and other such violence. I think it could help build some sense of unity. I think the American people need to see scores of these people denouncing this violence. I think maybe other Muslims need to see it? If it's out there....and if it's not, it should be.

[ih8music]

The more we hear about this guy and his familiarity to the Orlando gay community, he seems like a closeted gay man full of self loathing and hatred who snapped. To what degree he was also inspired by and affiliated with Muslim extremists is still yet to be determined... but I wouldn't be surprised if that was just a convenient macho cover story that he used to justify his rage.

 

His story, so far at least, doesn't seem to resemble that of the San Bernardino or Boston terrorists very much. You can shout all you want that this is only about Radical Islamic Terrorism!, but I think that's ignoring a huge part of the story.

[KevinG]

I wish the media would spend more time on the Muslim people in AND outside the US denouncing this and other such violence. I think it could help build some sense of unity. I think the American people need to see scores of these people denouncing this violence. I think maybe other Muslims need to see it? If it's out there....and if it's not, it should be.

 

It is there.  Here are just some of the articles I found:

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/06/12/orlando-nightclub-muslim-reaction/85790320/

 

http://www.dw.com/en/support-pours-in-for-orlando-shooting-victims/a-19328508

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/american-muslims-send-a-powerful-message-of-solidarity-to-orlando-victims_us_575ef3d4e4b071ec19ee9fbe

 

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/harford/belair/ph-ag-orlando-harford-reaction-0615-20160613-story.html

 

Why do you think it is a requirement to have Muslim countries denounce this?  Don't get me wrong, I feel every country and every person should make a statement of solidarity and support and denounce violence of any kind.  But why do you feel that we need to specifically have Muslims say this is wrong?  

 

What the media is doing and people are doing is making this a Muslim thing.  It is not a Muslim thing.  This is the action of a sick and mentally ill person.  There was something wrong in this person's head that told him that it was ok to take a gun and kill 49 people.  This person does not speak for, or are his actions indicative of any other person or group, Muslim or otherwise.  His actions are his own.  

 

We are so quick to label anyone with a Middle Eastern name or heritage, who commits an act like this a Muslim terrorist, or Islamic terrorist, etc.  Why do we need these qualifiers?  He is a simply a terrorist.  He committed an act of terror.  He killed 49 people.  Adding these labels does nothing more than add him to a group of 1.6 billion peaceful followers of a faith.  Using his religion as a description of what he did, is dangerous and does nothing more than spread fear and mistrust of a large part of the world.          

[uncool2pillow]

The more we hear about this guy and his familiarity to the Orlando gay community, he seems like a closeted gay man full of self loathing and hatred who snapped. To what degree he was also inspired by and affiliated with Muslim extremists is still yet to be determined... but I wouldn't be surprised if that was just a convenient macho cover story that he used to justify his rage.

 

His story, so far at least, doesn't seem to resemble that of the San Bernardino or Boston terrorists very much. You can shout all you want that this is only about Radical Islamic Terrorism!, but I think that's ignoring a huge part of the story.

 

If this is the case, I would argue his self-loathing is intricately tied to his faith. In my mind, this adds more to his motives, but doesn't change them.

 

 

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[Tweedling]

I saw headlines....after I searched as you did. Unfortunately it's not being put in the front as I think it should. I'd like to see people marching in peace and solidarity for unity on the television and websites instead of people marching with masks on their face and black Isis flags. (Like we tend to see now) If we're saying this person was brainwashed or mislead by the Internet and websites and teachers who pervert this religion then I think we need to combat it with peaceful loving Muslims taking a stand....and it being broadcasted.

Say what you will, that this guy acted alone or he did not do this in the name of religion or it was a radicalized single action....however you'd like to present it but in the end this guy did this killing claiming ISIS. The fort hood shooter yelled out Allah Akbar, the Boston bombings, San Bernardino.....they were subscribing to Islam...sharia? A perverted distorted version of Islam? Yes. But in its name and i think to flood our media with other true Muslims denouncing this would help things. (My opinion)

Regardless of how we feel these people committing these horrific acts they add themselves to the 1.6 billion peaceful Muslims and that's why I think they should actively come out and denounce this type of deadly action across the globe.

I never said it should be a requirement. I think it would help

[KevinG]

I saw headlines....after I searched as you did. Unfortunately it's not being put in the front as I think it should. I'd like to see people marching in peace and solidarity for unity on the television and websites instead of people marching with masks on their face and black Isis flags. (Like we tend to see now) If we're saying this person was brainwashed or mislead by the Internet and websites and teachers who pervert this religion then I think we need to combat it with peaceful loving Muslims taking a stand....and it being broadcasted.

Say what you will, that this guy acted alone or he did not do this in the name of religion or it was a radicalized single action....however you'd like to present it but in the end this guy did this killing claiming ISIS. The fort hood shooter yelled out Allah Akbar, the Boston bombings, San Bernardino.....they were subscribing to Islam...sharia? A perverted distorted version of Islam? Yes. But in its name and i think to flood our media with other true Muslims denouncing this would help things. (My opinion)

Regardless of how we feel these people committing these horrific acts they add themselves to the 1.6 billion peaceful Muslims and that's why I think they should actively come out and denounce this type of deadly action across the globe.

I never said it should be a requirement. I think it would help

 

So many things here.  

 

1) First off my search showed that Muslims around the world and our country are equally outraged.  I am not sure why you feel Muslims have to show more or do more denounce this.  Does the leader of your local Mosque need to go on TV and denounce this?  Should Joko Widodo, the elected leader of Indonesia, the country with the largest Muslim population (13%) need to come on TV and denounce this?  What is going to satisfy you?

 

When the movie theater shootings happened last year, did you want to see Christians denounce that on TV?  Or the shooting in SC or the abortion clinic?  Did you think leader a protestant church in Sauk Prairie WI need to go and give a press release condemning the violence?  You are simply holding Muslims to a higher standard because of their religion and the shooters association. 

 

2) Yes, he pledged his allegiance to ISIS.  This maybe hard to understand, but ISIS is not Islam.  Not all Muslims are members of ISIS.   The Boston Bombers, the San Bernardo Shooters, used a perverted understanding of Islam to justify (in their minds) their horrible acts.  There are sects and members of the Christian religion who have done and will continue do horrible, horrible things in the name of Christ.  No one would ever come out and say that they speak for Christians, or this was a Radical Christianity.  Why is it we have to go beyond ISIS (who has claimed responsibility) as an organization to blame?  That in essence is what you are doing, asking Muslims to apologize for something they had no part in.      

 

There are about 20,000 members of ISIS (.00125% of all Muslims).  We see the new footage of the ISIS flags and marching in black masks, etc. because it scary.  News today is about scary.  If it bleeds it leads.  Most of the time the footage you see is old propaganda and really has no relevance.  I am not sure you would think .00125% of something would represent anything.        

 

3) Unfortunately you are right, having Muslims around the world vocally and publicly denounce this attack would help.  It would make people seem more at ease by saying, look Muslims really do care about us.  But that is sad.  It is not going to do anything.  It will not change the minds of ISIS, it will not prevent another attack.  

 

The populace as a whole is woefully misinformed about Islam and frankly pretty stupid.  As I said before this was not a Muslim thing.  The attacker happened to be Muslim.  His religious ideas and thoughts played a part in his motivations, but his motivations are his own.  His motivations are not representative of anything but himself.   The presumptive GOP nominee is preying on the stupidity of the American people.  He is making this shooter the face of 1.6 billion.  Nothing could be further from the truth.   

[Tweedling]

I don't need anyone to do anything for me to be satisfied.

I never said they need to apologize.

My point was what I thought it would be helpful if the media covered Muslims denouncing this action more. (And you recognized that)

When a "radical extremist Christian" shoots an abortion clinic or a movie theater I absolutely believe Christians should denounce those acts and the media, I think, should show that more as well.

[KevinG]

My point was what I thought it would be helpful if the media covered Muslims denouncing this action more. (And you recognized that)

 

I also said that was sad and unfortunate and it was because the American populace has a misunderstanding of Islam.  

 

 

When a "radical extremist Christian" shoots an abortion clinic or a movie theater I absolutely believe Christians should denounce those acts and the media, I think, should show that more as well.

 

Funny I don't remember you calling for this back in November when an Evangelical Christian killed three in an abortion clinic.   

 

Every person on this planet should be horrified by what occurred in Orlando.  It is absolutely wonderful and a fantastic show of support that people and countries around the world are condemning the violence.  I would be delighted if the news spent their coverage on this.  It would be great.  But the dangerous territory that you are getting in to, is when you think it would help some sort of vague sense of unity if Muslims were featured more prominently in the media denouncing this.  The people of Muslim faith had absolutely nothing to do with tragedy.  The only reason you singled out the Muslims as the need to denounce this is because of who the shooter was.  Furthermore you seem to think that this denunciation would balance out the ISIS videos we see on the news.  The two are entirely different.  

 

What you have is an opinion.  I don't disagree with opinion.  But I am not looking for the Muslim community to denounce this tragedy.  I am looking for all people to denounce this tragedy.  I am looking for ways to stop this tragedy form happening again.  We need to look at how law enforcement tracks and deals with perceived dangerous individuals; we need to look at how dangerous individuals get access to weapons, we need to look at how people are radicalized into committing these horrible acts.  What won't help is blanket denunciations by groups or countries that had nothing to do with this tragedy.  A sense of unity will only happen when something like this never happens again.  

 

We are in this cycle

1) Tragedy happens

2) We are all shocked

3) We give our support to whatever group, city, community, etc is affected

4) Colbert, Kimmel, Oliver, Noah, Fallon, etc. give a heartfelt speech before their shows

5) The President gives a speech, offering a vague solution.  People in Congress will say we must do x y and z to stop this.    

6) We'll change our facebook profile picture and post about this to represent we care about this

7) We will forget this happened

8) We will go to step one

 

That is it.  That is the way it will be.  We will never ever get out of these steps.  And you may be thinking I put the blame on the gun industry, I don't.  These shootings are a failure of us as American people.  We continually let this happen in our country.  We are too stubborn to change and we are media obsessed to every have this change.   Our attention spans are too short.  This tragedy is not the fault of Muslims or ISIS or the individual, this tragedy is the fault of America.  It is the fault of you and me.       

[Doctor B]

Are you really serious? This tragedy is not my fault. This tragedy is the direct result of a violent radical Islamic philosophy that the current leaders seem unable and unwilling to confront.

[Winston Legthigh]

Christians: Anti Gay.

Muslims: Anti Gay. 

 

Christians: Good

Muslims: Bad

[ditty]

This tragedy is the direct result of a violent radical Islamic philosophy that the current leaders seem unable and unwilling to confront.

 

This country's HATE, is a direct result of a violent radical CHRISTIAN philosophy, that the last 8 years worth of REPUBLICAN congress has fueled and was STARTED by one piece of shit president "W" in 2001.

 

RELIGION AND MONEY IS THE ENEMY!

[Ghost of Electricity]

 This tragedy is the direct result of a violent radical Islamic philosophy that the current leaders seem unable and unwilling to confront.

 Wow. What an oversimplified version of a standpoint that is built on a false premise to begin with.

[Tweedling]

It's the shooters fault.

I think the father should share in some responsibility as well. I heard on the NPR that the father was asked if he knew his son may be gay and he said no and that he would not forgive him if he were. Love and compassion

[Ghost of Electricity]

And then there's this: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36540388

[Sir Stewart]

Wow.

[KevinG]

Are you really serious? This tragedy is not my fault. This tragedy is the direct result of a violent radical Islamic philosophy that the current leaders seem unable and unwilling to confront.

 

Yes I am serious.  Directly the tragedy is the shooters fault.  I am not denying that.  As well as result of the shooters perversion of Islamic philosophy.

 

But we as a society are not blameless.  We live in country where the people can effect change.  We can right the wrongs of our society.  But America as a whole has failed.  The statics remain mass shootings happen disproportionately in the US than any other place in world.  They cycle I mentioned continues and will continue.  We as Americans no longer seem to care enough about this for a long enough time to do anything about this.  So to simply have a moment of silence or thoughts and prayers, does nothing and will continue to do nothing.  So unless something is done by the people this will happen again.  I am not saying banning guns is the answer, nor is the racial profiling of an entire religion.   We have even giving up on trying, our words are empty.

 

And BTW please stop with the current leaders are unwilling to confront radical Islam bullshit.  It simply a right wing talking point and a load of crap.  So if you really feel this way I urge you to explain, exactly how are the current leaders unwilling or unable to confront radical Islam?    

 

 

And then there's this: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36540388

 

Hun.  I am sure that will probably change though.  

[KevinG]

Cheeto Jesus is my new band name

 

https://twitter.com/TheRickWilson/status/743289565172097024?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw