Dude Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 See my response to Finna. I simply stated that the option for these cells to be used in ART be the first option and then medical research. If you have numbers to show me that there isn't enough to go around and that's putting the needs of the few over the needs of the many, i'll stand down. Then, if you want to get down to brass tacks, provide me w/ the same info Finna is working on how these cells are a clear cut cure that will save the millions of lives you keep referring to. I see you taking issue with me and with Finna but Spock gets a free pass. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EL the Famous Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 As i'm clueless, was there federal funding pu towards ART methodologies like IVF? Just curious. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EL the Famous Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Mr. Eyeball, I thank you for infusing my obviously emotion-charged rhetoric clogging up this thread w/ much needed facts...whether they support what i'm saying or don't. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
plasticeyeball Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Mr. Eyeball, I thank you for infusing my obviously emotion-charged rhetoric clogging up this thread w/ much needed facts...whether they support what i'm saying or don't. if it wasn't for you i wouldn't even have know there was an adult vs embryonic debate. i did have a hard time trying to find something scientific/medical based versus something one sided/political based edit: by the way, i can't believe how many words you can type in a day. it's amazing Quote Link to post Share on other sites
viatroy Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 That's crazy talk! some crazy scheme going on where we had hundreds of breeders incubating embryos for that purpose? m'i bad? a girl's gotta make a livin seriously, I don't imagine (though I could be underestimating the greed factor) anyone would choose to submit to egg harvesting (sperm harvesting is an altogether different animal) purely for financial gain. Yeah, nevermind, I'm kidding myself. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EL the Famous Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 edit: by the way, i can't believe how many words you can type in a day. it's amazing at the expense of my job? not amazing, but stupid and I need to get some things done. I will say, that after all of this, I really can't wait to get home to hold my kids. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dude Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 at the expense of my job? not amazing, but stupid and I need to get some things done.You think this is bad. Wait until he gets going on the Justice League / Legion of Doom. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EL the Famous Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 You think this is bad. Wait until he gets going on the Justice League / Legion of Doom. or Whatever works for you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
embiggen Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 that is stupid AND evil! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wheelco Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 that is stupid AND evil!but Texas is a big enough place for both say, how long do you think it would take to drive home to one side of Texas from the . . . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finna Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 I told myself not to weigh in on this, but just a thought. Medical ethics is careful consideration of not simply the immediate moral cost/benefit, but also the careful consideration for the long term. When organ transplant became a viable option, there was concern about the ethical question of who gets a new organ. Who wins the prize? Should my sister, a long term alcoholic, dying of acute liver disease be a candidate for liver transplant? Should Keith Richards? David Crosby? They have the money to buy a billion livers. Someone has to make these decisions. If stem cell research discovers that stem cells are a panacea for many of the world's ills, where will more stem cells come from? Will poor folks be paid for their reproductive cells to make more embryos for just this purpose? How much would Chris Reeve have been willing to pay to get up and walk again? What's the black market value for the mental clarity of a former president? Good call- and honestly, that's all I was trying to do with my original post- show that the issue had many, many sides. However, somehow I've become a baby hater (nothing could be further from the truth) and while others get an opinon (note: thoughts that are the express belief of the holder) mine is wrong? That'll learn me to post on VC. As for the may or may not- wait until someone you love completely and utterly and deeply and with every fiber of your being gets sick. Wait to see how much promise is in the MAY part of the equation. MAY is a hell of a lot more hope than terminal, no hope, death. Just sayin. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
viatroy Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 but Texas is a big enough place for both say, how long do you think it would take to drive home to one side of Texas from the . . . criminy, you're from that neighborhood, you oughta know! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dude Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 MEMO FROM THE HALL OF DOOM (MIDWEST OFFICE) Dear Superfriends, During our most recent meeting, my latest incarnation of the L.O.D. (including myself, David Lo Pan, Shonuff - The Shogun of Harlem, Ric Flair, the ghost of G.G. Allin, Gary from the Olde Town Tavern, Masked Hater II and former FCC Chairman Michael Powell) did some spitballing on some fresh new ideas for world domination. After a few hours putting things up on the (evil) dry erase board, we agreed on the following: Within the next few weeks, we will steal machines from strategicaly placed LASIK clinics around the U.S. These machines will be modified into several special 'Super Lasers' capable of leveling an entire mobile home park with the tough of a button. These 'Super Lasers' will be mounted on several of what is known in certain hipster circles as a 'Pope Mobile'. These 'Pope Mobiles', being both bullet-proof and sporty, will provide us both mobility and sanctuary from any of your feeble attempts to thwart the plan I have outlined above. This 'Caravan of Carnage' as we're calling it now, will be mobilized w/ little to no warning...because we're evil and that's what we do. We will cease w/ moving forward of said plan, if the following demands are met post haste:- No more reruns of ABC's 'LOST'...that show is hardcore and anybody who doesn't thinks so can eat it.- The tape of the Tweedy charity performance be released and a tree or bitorrent set up for it's distribution.- $5- A lifetime supply of the crunchy tacos from BK.- Enough copies of the new Bright Eyes albums for each member of the 'legion'. Our next communication will come via the online music site (known in the same certain hipster circles alluded to in the 'Pope Mobile' section) as Pitchfork. If our demands are not met, we will unleash some harcore evil supervillain shit like the world has not seen before. So, since out next scheduled outing isn't until the GOOD vs. EVIL softball game in the Spring...let's make this one count! PEACE OUT BITCHES,EL-F Back when El Kev brought the Comedy Gold to VC. Oh, the memories. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Heartbreak Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 The bill would have freed scientists to use federal money to experiment with many of the scores of stem-cell lines that have been derived in recent years in other countries or with private money in the U.S.There's the heart of the story right there...emphasis on the phrase stem-cell lines that have been derived in recent years. We're not talking about creating fetus farms here.This country is really moving backwards fast. Scary. By the way, on this question...What's the black market value for the mental clarity of a former president?...I'm gonna vote $0.00. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JUDE Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 SCIENCE!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EL the Famous Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Good call- and honestly, that's all I was trying to do with my original post- show that the issue had many, many sides. However, somehow I've become a baby hater (nothing could be further from the truth) and while others get an opinon (note: thoughts that are the express belief of the holder) mine is wrong? As for the may or may not- wait until someone you love completely and utterly and deeply and with every fiber of your being gets sick. Just sayin. Who called you a baby hater and/or told you your opinion was wrong? Plus, I don't have to wait until someone I love completely and utterly and deeply and with every fiber of my being gets sick. It's happened to both me and my wife before and my guess, it will happen again. It's horrible and I don't wish that on anybody. My point was that the whole 'may or may not' thing goes both ways...you used it to state these cells may or may not ever amount to an actual birth, I used it to state these cells may or may not save somebody's life. My hope is that they could do both...i'm no more an enemy of the terminally ill than you are a baby-hater. As I don't know if you have or want kids (neither of which make you any less or more of a person), I won't tell you to wait until someone tells you that despite your inability to produce an embryo yourself, even though you want nothing more than to give birth to a child and be a parent, that there is assisted technology that may be able to help...wait to see how much promise is in the MAY part of the equation. MAY is a hell of a lot more hope than impossible, no hope. I'm not comparing the two or saying one is more important than the other either, like you, i'm just sayin. Back when El Kev brought the Comedy Gold to VC. Oh, the memories.I was all set to move beyond, but if you wanna' detract from your other (what I still consider to be) personal digs on me by further digs that are a total reach to say the least...completely side step backing up what you said and post shit like that instead...by all means, carry on. Just shows how much of an ass you are and how I really don't give a shit if you think i'm funny or not. I know it's no miscarriage joke, but cut me some slack. Really. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pocahontas Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Ahh, got it. Never heard of that. Well, as a person that currently has a frozen embryo and going through the oft emotionally draining process of trying to find a way to conceive a child...I don't see the bad in preferring that said embryo be 'adopted' should we decide not to have another child and someone have the opportunity to give birth as well. I see the benefit of stem cell research and i'm actually for it (thusly, not a huge fan of this veto)...however, some of you guys seem to be speaking in absolutes again w/out really knowing how hard it is to make that decision. You can say they become a 'real' person at X days/months/weeks, but still...we made that embryo, it comes from the both of us...it's not the 'oh yeah, we don't want it, just donate it to science' thing you think it is. Much like viatroy's moral stance against the war, this isn't just another clear cut political or scientific debate. and back to the snowflake comment earlier, what is the matter w/ any of those kids being 'snowflake' kids? I think that's wonderful that two people who desperately wanted to be parents and share their love w/ someone get the opportunity to do so...and the child receiving the opportunity to be loved is pretty cool too. I was not meaning anything bad about the children, I think it is wonderful that women donate their eggs so other couples can adopt an embryo and have a baby. There are to many people out there that would be loving parents who can not conceive on their own and any help from some scientific way to have one is great. I just did not like Bush having all those families up there with him yesterday and the news referring to these beautiful children as "SnowFlake Kids", they are just normal children like the rest of the children who are born. Sorry if I upset you in anyway, did not mean to insult anyone. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EL the Famous Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 I just did not like Bush having all those families up there with him yesterday and the news referring to these beautiful children as "SnowFlake Kids", they are just normal children like the rest of the children who are born. Sorry if I upset you in anyway, did not mean to insult anyone. No insult taken and knowing what I do now...I completely agree! The fact that the cells in said bill are not able to be adopted makes the whole thing of bringing them onstage ridiculous and utter exploitation. I had enver heard of the SnowFlake program and diodn't ge the reference...thank you for posting up again anyhow. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Derek Phillips Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Andrew Sullivan, a Conservative, is having this debate on his blog. One reader posted this bit of info that I think points this whole idea of funding into practical matters: What you don't understand is that when a researcher conducts research, he is often involved with many projects. Therefore it is likely that one who would engage in embryonic stem cell research, funded by a state or private organization, will also be participating in research funded by federal agencies such as the NIH. The problem with this ban means that none of the researchers implements funded with federal money can ever be involved/associated with research funded by other means. This includes the lab space, every beaker, piece of paper, pencil, etc.! This is not practical in the slightest. That means that a researcher, say here at UCSF, who wants to tap into the money allocated by the state of California for stem cell research, would have to have a completely different facility whereby NOTHING funded with federal dollars can enter, and that likely includes the researcher himself. In academic medicine this is impossible. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kidsmoke Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Andrew Sullivan, a Conservative, is having this debate on his blog. One reader posted this bit of info that I think points this whole idea of funding into practical matters: What you don't understand is that when a researcher conducts research, he is often involved with many projects. Therefore it is likely that one who would engage in embryonic stem cell research, funded by a state or private organization, will also be participating in research funded by federal agencies such as the NIH. The problem with this ban means that none of the researchers implements funded with federal money can ever be involved/associated with research funded by other means. This includes the lab space, every beaker, piece of paper, pencil, etc.! This is not practical in the slightest. That means that a researcher, say here at UCSF, who wants to tap into the money allocated by the state of California for stem cell research, would have to have a completely different facility whereby NOTHING funded with federal dollars can enter, and that likely includes the researcher himself. In academic medicine this is impossible. The implications of this are mind-boggling and deeply sad. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
M. (hristine Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 seriously, I don't imagine (though I could be underestimating the greed factor) anyone would choose to submit to egg harvesting (sperm harvesting is an altogether different animal) purely for financial gain. Yeah, nevermind, I'm kidding myself.No? How about a body part? Organs Watch Quote Link to post Share on other sites
viatroy Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 my liver is pure as the driven snow. wonder what that would fetch? and it begs the question, should THEY have paid ME when I had my gall bladder removed? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kidsmoke Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 my liver is pure as the driven snow. wonder what that would fetch? I'll give ya $1.95 plus mailing costs. Mine has a little wear and tear. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dude Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 I'm not comparing the two or saying one is more important than the other either, like you, i'm just sayin.I was all set to move beyond, but if you wanna' detract from your other (what I still consider to be) personal digs on me by further digs that are a total reach to say the least...completely side step backing up what you said and post shit like that instead...by all means, carry on. Just shows how much of an ass you are and how I really don't give a shit if you think i'm funny or not. I know it's no miscarriage joke, but cut me some slack. Really. 1. I wasn't making any personal attacks on you prior to reposting your Legion of Doom post. 2. The miscarriage thing wasn't a joke - it was my slightly tasteless way of lampooning the whole "those fetus cells have a right to live", fundie right-winger bullshit argument. As far as I'm concerned it wasn't even directed at you if that wasn't ever your stance to begin with. If it was, well, tough tittie. 3. Calling me an asshole repeatedly isn't really the "high road" you seem to enjoy taking, and futher gets in the way of your "holier than thou" stance you crave. I don't recall calling you any names... (...outside of saying you're a provider of Comedy Gold. Which you are.) 4. That Pope Mobile was some funny a$$ shit, dood. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Heartbreak Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Dude, here's my solution to that problem. You have chosen to ignore all posts from: Dr. EL Feelgood. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.