The impending WWIII

[groselicain]

Maybe they were becoming jealous of the tourism dollars that Lebanon was bringing in, and they decided they didn't want the competition.

 

Nope... they just didn't watch Munich.

 

[bjorn_skurj]

Speech of Ehud Olmert, Prime Minister of the State of Israel, published in Maariv on Monday, July 31, 2006.

 

 

[Artifex]

Indeed.

[ben]

Indeed.

 

Amen Amen Amen, that speech is exactly what needed to be said.

[MattZ]

Thats really an amazing speech. Beautifully written too.

 

I just wish it were as simple as Olmert makes it sound. Israel cannot destroy all of its enemies. There are too many. And I fear that Israel only creates more enemies by proceding down a path like this.

 

I recognize that Israel may have no choice and it has to defend itself, but at the end of the day, Olmert needs to do what he believes is in the best interests of Israel for the long term. I suppose only time will tell if invading Lebanon eliminates enemies or creates more of them.

 

Such an unspeakably sad situation.

[cryptique]

I think that speech was disgusting.

 

Israel continues to justify its own atrocities by pointing to the Holocaust. That was a separate event that happened a long time ago on a different continent. It was horrible beyond measure, and it was something that the world should never forget, lest it happen again -- but it's time that Israel stopped using it to justify actions that are little better than those of the terrorists they now face.

 

I don't pretend to have a solution to the Middle East problem, but I do know that the solution does not involve bombing innocent civilians, or destroying the infrastructure of a country that so recently showed such promise for the elusive dream of a moderate Muslim democracy. That promise was still in its infancy, but it has now been utterly dashed by the Israeli attacks, which will only serve to radicalize people who previously wanted little more than to live peaceful lives and enjoy a resurrected Beirut. Those people are now losing relatives and friends to Israeli bombs, and have seen supply routes for basic, life-sustaining provisions mercilessly cut by an adversary who openly no longer cares whether it is killing Hezbollah terrorists or innocent civilians.

 

I believe in Israel's right to defend itself, but as they have done time and time again against the Palestinians and others, they have escalated their response far beyond any reasonable level. Their aim of eradicating Hezbollah will fail, because it cannot help but fail. Does Israel not see that with every civilian they kill, they drive many more into the arms of Hezbollah? It happened in Palestine -- how else to explain the Hamas victories in recent elections? -- and it is now happening in Lebanon. Indeed, it is happening across the entire Muslim world. How do you expect to put out the fire when you're fanning the flames?

 

I repeat that I do not have a solution to this problem. I understand that there are many powerful organizations, and entire sovereign nations, that want nothing more than to wipe Israel off the map, and they're not particularly interested in diplomacy. That's an unimaginably tough situation, and I fully understand why Israel chose to create an overwhelmingly powerful military, given the dangers they have faced from their neighbors ever since the birth of their nation. The way they've chosen to use that military, however, has only put their citizens in greater danger, and exacerbated a situation that was difficult enough to begin with.

 

I understand why people support Israel's military campaign. I would ask, though: what do you see as the endgame? Do you really think Hezbollah can be defeated? If you kill every Hezbollah fighter in Lebanon, do you really think that things will get better for Israel? Is a short-term cessation of rocket attacks -- a goal that is still far from realization -- really worth the shitstorm that these military operations will ultimately bring down around Israel? And why was it necessary to bomb the city of Beirut, and to destroy 85% of the major bridges throughout the entire country of Lebanon? Don't the Lebanese people also have "the right to lead normal lives within [their] recognized, legitimate borders"? Or is it only Israel, among all Middle Eastern nations, who should enjoy that right? Olmert decries the treatment of Jews while simultaneously playing on anti-Muslim sentiments. What kind of bullshit is that? He brought up the word "hypocrisy," yet he can't see it in himself.

 

In no way do I side with the anti-Israeli terrorists in this struggle, but Israel's actions make it very difficult for me to side with them either. It's a big fucking mess, and both sides just need to CUT IT OUT. Yes, I know that's an extremely ridiculous suggestion, but it's no more ridiculous than what's happening now.

[ction]

You're both in "timeout" until you can behave yourselves.

[MattZ]

I think that speech was disgusting.

 

The problem with this situation, in a nutshell, is as follows: I forwarded that speech to a friend who thought it was beautiful. And you thought it was disgusting. Both of you have completely logical, well thought-out and considerate reasons for your beliefs. So, neither of you are right, and neither of you are wrong. When you have a situation like that -- it seems to me that you have a disaster waiting to happen.

 

Cryptique -- re: Olmert's reference to the Holocaust -- even as a Jew I roll my eyes at most mentions of the Holocaust... But it is undeniable that there has been a very long history of atrocities being committed against Jews while nations (friendly or otherwise) stood around watching (pogroms in Eastern Europe, Russia, WWII, intifada, etc.). I dont see the Holocaust as the justification for what Israel is doing, but I see the Holocaust as a symbol to Israel that it has to stand up for itself because relying on the good will of Europe or other Western countries has never gotten it anywhere. Its unfair and (with all due respect) naive for you to suggest that the Holocaust is something that happened on a different continent a long time ago. That's beside the point. What Olmert is fighting against is a very long history (that implcates many continents and many countries) of ignoring atrocities against the Jewish people. Olmert is not saying that "6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust so we can do what we want". He is saying something very different.

 

As for where I stand on this whole issue -- believe it or not, I think I agree with you mostly. Invading Lebanon will only create more enemies. And it is impossible to destroy Hezbollah. But I dont have any answers either.

[cryptique]

The problem with this situation, in a nutshell, is as follows: I forwarded that speech to a friend who thought it was beautiful. And you thought it was disgusting. Both of you have completely logical, well thought-out and considerate reasons for your beliefs. So, neither of you are right, and neither of you are wrong. When you have a situation like that -- it seems to me that you have a disaster waiting to happen.

I agree. There's just not a clear-cut villain and clear-cut victim in this situation. There's too much on both sides to sympathize with and to despise. I guess I tend to be harder on Israel because when you come right down to it, they're the ones with the military might (and they're backed by the nation with even more military might). It's hard to convince people you're a victim when you have such an imbalance in firepower in your favor.

 

Cryptique -- re: Olmert's reference to the Holocaust -- even as a Jew I roll my eyes at most mentions of the Holocaust... But it is undeniable that there has been a very long history of atrocities being committed against Jews while nations (friendly or otherwise) stood around watching (pogroms in Eastern Europe, Russia, WWII, intifada, etc.). I dont see the Holocaust as the justification for what Israel is doing, but I see the Holocaust as a symbol to Israel that it has to stand up for itself because relying on the good will of Europe or other Western countries has never gotten it anywhere. Its unfair and (with all due respect) naive for you to suggest that the Holocaust is something that happened on a different continent a long time ago. That's beside the point. What Olmert is fighting against is a very long history (that implcates many continents and many countries) of ignoring atrocities against the Jewish people. Olmert is not saying that "6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust so we can do what we want". He is saying something very different.

I understand and appreciate the history, and I understand the impulse to bring up that history when talking about this conflict. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with that impulse.

 

As for where I stand on this whole issue -- believe it or not, I think I agree with you mostly. Invading Lebanon will only create more enemies. And it is impossible to destroy Hezbollah. But I dont have any answers either.

I wish someone did. But then, if there were easy answers, someone would have come up with them already, I guess.

[MattZ]

I agree. There's just not a clear-cut villain and clear-cut victim in this situation. There's too much on both sides to sympathize with and to despise. I guess I tend to be harder on Israel because when you come right down to it, they're the ones with the military might (and they're backed by the nation with even more military might).

 

And I suppose that I tend to be harder on the Arabs in this situation because when you get down to it, the ultimate goals of both are so disparate. Hezbollah, Hamas, and the man on the arab street want Israel off the map. There is no middle ground for them. Notwithstanding Israel's actions (disproportionate or otherwise), I really do think Israel wants peace. And Israel would be thrilled to live with a Palestinian state, etc. if it thought they could co-exist peacefully.

 

I wish someone did. But then, if there were easy answers, someone would have come up with them already, I guess.

 

Exactly. But forget about easy answers -- the scariest thing for me in all of this is that there might not be any answers. Where does that leave us?

 

One other thing that worries me -- how do the tables turn when and if Iran becomes a nuclear power? One nuke wipes out a country as small as Israel. I agree with you (and others) that Israel has a history of reacting disproportionately, but I dont think anyone thinks that Israel would ever use a nuke in that region. I am fairly confident that Iran wouldn't either because it would only lead to its destruction. But if you were Vegas, would you set odds on Iran not using a nuke? A country with militant leaders that preach martyrdom and the destruction of Israel? Makes me sick to think about.

[fortuneinmyhead]

Here is a naive idea: the u.s. and their allies give each side a nuclear weapon which is operational only if used against their opponent (israel or hezbolla). what do you think would happen? would either side use it? would both? would the fighting end because they both have big guns (and hence maybe they would start talking about how to co-exist somewhat peacefully).

 

I know it will never happen, but that silly fantasy occurred to me.

 

Mostly all of this fighting makes me hate organized religion even more than I did before. It's always dogmatism that leads people into the tunnel vision world of 'i'm right, god's on my side and you're of lesser value because of it.'

Edited August 9, 2006 by fortuneinmyhead

[Atticus]

It's always dogmatism that leads people into the tunnel vision world of 'i'm right, god's on my side and you're of lesser value because of it.'

 

or real estate.

 

or jay bennett and nels cline.

[a.miller]

Here is a naive idea: the u.s. and their allies give each side a nuclear weapon which is operational only if used against their opponent (israel or hezbolla). what do you think would happen? would either side use it? would both? would the fighting end because they both have big guns (and hence maybe they would start talking about how to co-exist somewhat peacefully).

Maybe they would just both blow the hell out of each other. Pehaps that would cause an end to all of the stupid shit that has gone on between the two. I mean really, what is going to be decided at the end of this. History has shown that the Middle East doesn't tend to learn from the past. It sounds horrible, because it would be, but I'm beginning to wonder if something like a nuclear strike would make the Arabs/Muslims/Jews/Sunni/Shiite/other groups wake the fuck up and realize that killing each other is not going to solve anything. The same problem just perpetuates and my answer is evolving to just rolling my eyes when I hear about Middle Eastern violence. It just seems to occur over and over again.

[EL the Famous]

Mostly all of this fighting makes me hate organized religion even more than I did before. It's always dogmatism that leads people into the tunnel vision world of 'i'm right, god's on my side and you're of lesser value because of it.'

 

That's a pretty sweeping statement about organized religion...

[fortuneinmyhead]

That's a pretty sweeping statement about organized religion...

 

yes it is. but I didn't mean that it causes all folks that follow it into zealots.

 

and yet most zealots are whipped into their zealotry becuase they are motivated by a dogmatic organized religion. we don't need to split hairs here, do we?

[ben]

I think that speech was disgusting.

 

Israel continues to justify its own atrocities by pointing to the Holocaust. That was a separate event that happened a long time ago on a different continent. It was horrible beyond measure, and it was something that the world should never forget, lest it happen again -- but it's time that Israel stopped using it to justify actions that are little better than those of the terrorists they now face.

 

How can you say that? The holocaust wasn't that long ago, and wasn't that far away. For plenty of family's (including mine) in the Jewish community, the wounds are just as real now as they were back then. You are clearly not a Jew, and can never understand. Just stick to your "ain't I cool" position, I'm sure the chicks dig it.

 

Also, why don't you do a little research on the Arab/Nazi connection. Start with Grand Mifti Husseini. One of the most powerful Arab leaders in history. The one that Arafat called "our greatest hero".

[cryptique]

Just stick to your "ain't I cool" position, I'm sure the chicks dig it.

Stupid statements like this hardly elevate the level of debate.

[EL the Famous]

and yet most zealots are whipped into their zealotry becuase they are motivated by a dogmatic organized religion. we don't need to split hairs here, do we?

 

and some people devote their life to humanitarian work becuase they are motivated by a dogmatic organized religion. my point is, it's how certain individuals choose to follow that are more at fault. it annoys me when people say that all organized religion is bad, because of things like this...it's amateur-hour and perpetuating that statement allows indivudals to shirk responsibilities for their own actions.

[ben]

Stupid statements like this hardly elevate the level of debate.

 

 

Well, your brilliant statement that Jewish people shouldn't point to the Holocaust as a lesson does wonders for your position.

[Finna]

Moot point?

 

 

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/olmert.asp

[EL the Famous]

oh snap.

[fortuneinmyhead]

and some people devote their life to humanitarian work becuase they are motivated by a dogmatic organized religion. my point is, it's how certain individuals choose to follow that are more at fault. it annoys me when people say that all organized religion is bad, because of things like this...it's amateur-hour and perpetuating that statement allows indivudals to shirk responsibilities for their own actions.

 

allright fella fair enough. i'm not about to get into a debate on religion on a messageboard. my statement was understandable enough i think. i'm just ultimately put off by the self-righteousness that motivates people into endless ceaseless killing.

[EL the Famous]

fella. awesome.

[Finna]

Yes- I think we can all agree on the point about not killing each other can't we? Regardless of history and politics people are being killed. How is that good?

Isn't that a point in common from which people can calmly and rationally discuss the issue?

 

 

Or am I giving everyone WAY to much credit?

[EL the Famous]

Who said 'killing is good'?