Guest ScottHoward Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 We had the solution 6 years ago Unarmed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
caliber66 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Not to muddy the waters, but you have to remember that until quite recently, any talk of "Lebanon" as a sovereign nation had to include mention of Syria, who actually ran the place. I have no idea what the transition was like when Syria loosened its grip -- but it's at least somewhat possible that Hezbollah's power in the region is greater than that of the new Lebanese government. Isn't Hezbollah largely supported by Syria? Anyone know more about this? I'm curious. I mean, if the Lebanese government is truly independent of Syria now (I don't suspect they're completely independent, but still), what power do they have, if any, to rein in Hezbollah? That's all well and good - and I pretty much agree with everything you've said up there - but somebody's still got to be responsible for keeping Hezbollah from attacking Israel from within Lebanon. If Lebanon's defense is, "we can't control what goes on in our own country," then they need to rectify that situation. Obviously, bombing the shit out of Beirut isn't going to make it easier for the Lebanese government to maintain control down south, but it's certainly going to send the message that they need to try harder. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WITHIK Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 You're an anti-Semite. But I dont completely disagree with you. Like your racist sarcasm is actually funny. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LouieB Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Not to muddy the waters, but you have to remember that until quite recently, any talk of "Lebanon" as a sovereign nation had to include mention of Syria, who actually ran the place. I have no idea what the transition was like when Syria loosened its grip -- but it's at least somewhat possible that Hezbollah's power in the region is greater than that of the new Lebanese government. Isn't Hezbollah largely supported by Syria? Anyone know more about this? I'm curious. I mean, if the Lebanese government is truly independent of Syria now (I don't suspect they're completely independent, but still), what power do they have, if any, to rein in Hezbollah?You are exactly correct (at least as far as I am aware). Hezbollah is supported by Syria. They could reign them in, but it is more fun to let them bedevil Israel than to make peace. Lebannon used to be a very multi-ethnic, progressive and beautiful country which has been wracked by war, civil war and foreign insursion for decades now. Students used to go to places like American University and people used to hang out on the beach, but clearly those days are limited too. Israel takes enormous amounts of (somewhat well deserved) shit, but the fact remains that it is a multi-ethnic, diverse and democratic society; not perfect perhaps, but then what country is? It is easy to portray Israel as some sort of facist/ terrorist state, but in fact despite some despicable human rights issues, it is a fairly enlightened place compared to some of its neighbors. (Hell Chicago has a pretty absysmal record on human rights: see the police torture issues of the 1970s; the US has an abysmal record on human rights, we still execute more people than any so called advanced industrialized country.) The world's record on oppressing ethnic and native populations is pretty ridiculous, so it isn't just Israel that is guilty of bad behaviour. So while it isn't unfair to criticize Israel for what it does, singleing them out without pointing out the same behavior in neighboring countries does border on anti-semitism. There is a simple bottom line here. All parties need to help de-fuse and demilitarize this part of the middle east. As long as Iran is developing nuclear weapons and Syria and other countries arm and support Hamas, Fatah and Hezbollah and other factions, then Israel is under no obligation to do the same. Rather than this being the start of WWIII, this is just the continuation of the same old shit really. LouieB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
darkstar Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 You are exactly correct (at least as far as I am aware). Hezbollah is supported by Syria. They could reign them in, but it is more fun to let them bedevil Israel than to make peace. Lebannon used to be a very multi-ethnic, progressive and beautiful country which has been wracked by war, civil war and foreign insursion for decades now. Students used to go to places like American University and people used to hang out on the beach, but clearly those days are limited too. Israel takes enormous amounts of (somewhat well deserved) shit, but the fact remains that it is a multi-ethnic, diverse and democratic society; not perfect perhaps, but then what country is? It is easy to portray Israel as some sort of facist/ terrorist state, but in fact despite some despicable human rights issues, it is a fairly enlightened place compared to some of its neighbors. (Hell Chicago has a pretty absysmal record on human rights: see the police torture issues of the 1970s; the US has an abysmal record on human rights, we still execute more people than any so called advanced industrialized country.) The world's record on oppressing ethnic and native populations is pretty ridiculous, so it isn't just Israel that is guilty of bad behaviour. So while it isn't unfair to criticize Israel for what it does, singleing them out without pointing out the same behavior in neighboring countries does border on anti-semitism. There is a simple bottom line here. All parties need to help de-fuse and demilitarize this part of the middle east. As long as Iran is developing nuclear weapons and Syria and other countries arm and support Hamas, Fatah and Hezbollah and other factions, then Israel is under no obligation to do the same. Rather than this being the start of WWIII, this is just the continuation of the same old shit really. LouieB Well said....you can trace a lot of this shit back to 1916 with the adoption of the (then) secret Sykes-Picot agreement (check it out on google or Wikipedia). Of course Jew-Arab tensions have been strained for millenia, but this nice little carve up of the Middle East by France and Britan certainly has done a lot to produce bad vibes over there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gobias Industries Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 The reason why Lebanon probably can't stymie what's going on with the Hezbollah is because they have no means to do so. I'm guessing that the infrastructure there is almost non-existent, and their terms of trade (export/import) is probably in the shithole. The biggest issue is, neither party is going to defuse unless some big changes occur. Hopefully, peaceful, globalization-related ones. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ScottHoward Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 An Israeli air raid struck a United Nations observation post and killed four U.N. observers in southern Lebanon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gobias Industries Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Now Israel's gonna get it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 This is the way I look at it. It comes down to whether or not you support Zionism - the movement, began well over 100 years ago, to get the world's scattered Jews to return to that part of the Middle East they had lived in at one point in time before they were driven out by the Romans and the Arabs. Personally, I think the world owes something to the Jews. No other group of people that immediately leaps to mind has contributed so much to human civilization and gotten such harsh treatment in return. And if what the Jews want is their ancestral lands back, then fine, that's what they get.As for the Palestinians, I feel for them. Some of my ancestors experienced the situation of living happily in a land they thought was theirs only to have some people from far away show up and tell them, "Hey, God gave us this land. Leave or die. Come to think of it, just die." In a situation like this, it's hard to find justice - it all boils down to might making right, at least from the perspective of who's mightier. If we, i.e., the United States, the nation that makes Israel's existence possible, want to do justice by the Jews, we have to do justice by the Palestinians too. How that justice will be, is impossible to view, since it seems the Palestinians won't be satisfied until the Jews are all gone. Which won't happen, as Israel apparently has atomic weapons and I expect will use them if it feels sufficiently threatened.It's a damned near intractable situation. The world needs someone of Gandhi-like powers to fix it, and I don't see anybody out there matching that description. Give Clinton credit - he was able to make some progress with this. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
caliber66 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 The reason why Lebanon probably can't stymie what's going on with the Hezbollah is because they have no means to do so. I'm guessing that the infrastructure there is almost non-existent, and their terms of trade (export/import) is probably in the shithole. Again, this is not Israel's problem. The fact is, Hezbollah is attacking Israel from within Lebanon, and Lebanon for whatever reason has allowed it to go on. It is Lebanon's responsibility to make it stop. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anodyne Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 lebanon has been trying to reform for the past year and a half. bush praised lebanon not too long ago for kicking out syria's puppets. lebanon has had a hard time controlling their southern province. rather than aiding lebanon, israel has been using depleted uranium weapons, blowing up bridges and destroying cities. yes, hezbolla should be stopped. firing cruise missles into cities will neither stop hezbolla, strengthen the lebanese security nor will it end sympathies for the terrorist group. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tugmoose Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 I've noticed that this place is about 10 times less politically charged that it used to be. There doesn't seem to be much that's debatable at this point. Chaney and Rummy got our tit in a wringer in Iraq, while at the same time giving Iran a fresh set of balls. Now it's Back To Baghdad for a bunch of guys on their third or fourth tour. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
caliber66 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 lebanon has been trying to reform for the past year and a half. bush praised lebanon not too long ago for kicking out syria's puppets. lebanon has had a hard time controlling their southern province. rather than aiding lebanon, israel has been using depleted uranium weapons, blowing up bridges and destroying cities. yes, hezbolla should be stopped. firing cruise missles into cities will neither stop hezbolla, strengthen the lebanese security nor will it end sympathies for the terrorist group. All agreed. Just making the point that Lebanon hasn't done much to control Hezbollah, and one should not be surprised that any nation would attack another that allows a group to fire rockets across the border into their cities. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Basil II Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Lebanon has has no natural resources....tha'ts why we don't do nothing. We are an "empire" in decline. Bread and Circues forever!!!! --Robert. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mountain bed Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 We are an "empire" in decline. --Robert.I concur..."Those who don't know history...."The problem being W. & the Armageddon Angels don't see the writing on the wall.OK then,I'm off to an orgy & then a good flogging of the minions Scott Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WilcoFan Posted July 26, 2006 Author Share Posted July 26, 2006 Hell, blame the British they are the ones that carved up the Middle East after WWI Hey guys I'm in the middle of McCullough's "Truman." Don't ruin it for me. I'm on page 400 - potsdam. Great book. Great guy from what I've read so far. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cryptique Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 Hey guys I'm in the middle of McCullough's "Truman." Don't ruin it for me. I'm on page 400 - potsdam. Great book. Great guy from what I've read so far.aren't we mature enough at this point to admit that we can't judge the character of public figures by what image they put forth? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wheelco Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 Lebanon has has no natural resources....tha'ts why we don't do nothing. We are an "empire" in decline. Bread and Circues forever!!!!--Robert.yeh, back in the good old empire days it had world renowned Cedar forests, but those declined as well as the Egyptians, Babylonians, Persians and Romans cut them down Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anodyne Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 All agreed. Just making the point that Lebanon hasn't done much to control Hezbollah, and one should not be surprised that any nation would attack another that allows a group to fire rockets across the border into their cities.would it not make more sense to work WITH lebanon than to attack lebanon for having ineffective policing powers? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 I have the impression that Hezbollah is probably more powerful than the Lebanese government, especially in that part of the country. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Smith Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 25 years ago Israel pretty much stomped the crap out of the PLO military wing in southern lebanon. In it's place Hezballa grew and became the new nemesis. They were funded by Iran way back then, but today I would not doubt that they get funding from a wide range of supporters. I would guess that if the finances were untangled you would find the Saudi's have a hand in this too, though a distant and hard to trace hand. I know they are shiite and the Saudi's are Sunni, but they all hate Israel and the Saudi's are always rumored to be financing this or that in order to keep the crap out of their country. Anyhow my main point is that once Israel defeats Hezballa, what will grow in it's place. Something has to grow because the problem will still be there. The problem for the arabs is Israel and something will take the place of Hezballa, but what t will be? I have no clue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 The problem for the arabs is Israel and something will take the place of Hezballa, but what t will be? I have no clue.Jihad-zilla. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dude Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 Jihad-zilla. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
caliber66 Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 would it not make more sense to work WITH lebanon than to attack lebanon for having ineffective policing powers? Does anything that happens in the Middle East make fucking sense? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
viatroy Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 God's testing the people of the "Holy Land", and they're all failing miserably. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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