The impending WWIII

[Finna]

Who said 'killing is good'?

 

No one- just throwing out a topic of conversation...I guess I could have phrased it better.

[darkstar]

Matt and Cryptique you both have it right. Talk about a clusterfuck

 

In my opinion I believe Israel is justified in their actions. I do feel for the innocent, this ALWAYS happens in war, but Lebanon has done nothing to rid themselves of Hezbollah, and they neither have the resources nor the political will to do so. The Islamic Fascists are hell bent on not only destroying Israel, but anyone else who does not subscribe to their beliefs. I don't doubt for a minute some whacko country over there wouldn't use NBC warfare if given the chance (nuclear, biological, chemical).

 

It certainly is a huge mess, but I believe the threat with terror states is real and needs to be stopped. You can argue that fighting them only makes them stronger, attracts more people to their cause, etc and it probably is true, but if left un-checked these organizations will stop at nothing to impose their will on the middle east and rest of the world. They know exactly what they are doing and they know that their terror works. The rest of the world is slowly being lulled into a sense of appeasement that if we just ignore them and don't fight they will go away. It ain't gonna happen.

 

Call me crazy but if you ask me all the trouble starts with Iran. Get them out of the picture and I think there will be much more stability in that part of the world.

 

Anyways you both have submitted some well written and well thought out opinions

[embiggen]

Well, your brilliant statement that Jewish people shouldn't point to the Holocaust as a lesson does wonders for your position.

 

what does the Jewish holocaust have to do with this conflict? I would think that the Jews would need to learn from their own experience and history regarding the holocaust and think about all of the Lebanese people that they are wiping out. Children, women, etc,. I have yet to see any proof that they are only targeting Hezbollah. I do see lots of children being murdered by their bombs.

 

there. I SAID IT! and don't even say that I am an anti-semite because I don't approve of the way Israel is carrying out their 'campaign'.

[MattZ]

This place cracks me up sometimes.

[ben]

what does the Jewish holocaust have to do with this conflict? I would think that the Jews would need to learn from their own experience and history regarding the holocaust and think about all of the Lebanese people that they are wiping out. Children, women, etc,. I have yet to see any proof that they are only targeting Hezbollah. I do see lots of children being murdered by their bombs.

 

there. I SAID IT! and don't even say that I am an anti-semite because I don't approve of the way Israel is carrying out their 'campaign'.

 

Fine I won't say it.

 

But if you read my prior post I do some explaining of my position and the Arab/Nazi connection. In addition, what does this have to do with the "Jewish holocaust"? It has everything to do with it. The greatest lesson the Jewish people learned is that they must take it upon themselves to protect themselves from those who will destroy them.

 

Remember, the official mission of Hamas is to rid the world of Israel. Not to co-exist in peace.

Edited August 9, 2006 by ben

[EL the Famous]

I have yet to see any proof that they are only targeting Hezbollah. I do see lots of children being murdered by their bombs.

 

but you've seen proof that they aren't? good gravy, this place sometimes. wow.

[kidsmoke]

Everybody go do your jobs. The boss is coming.

[embiggen]

but you've seen proof that they aren't? good gravy, this place sometimes. wow.

 

when I wake up on a Sunday morning and see bodies of children being pulled from a destroyed, civilian building where there is no proof of Hezbollah hiding out or having rocket launchers, that's a civilian target, appearing random to me. how is that targeting Hezbollah? I didn't say they were specifically targeting civilians, but randomly bombing the shit out of that country. the civilian death count in Lebanon is much, much higher than the deaths in Israel. my perception is slaughter, not looking for the terrorist group and killing them. where is the body count of Hezbollah terrorists that have been killed in this struggle? but whatever, this is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

[Atticus]

Matt and Cryptique you both have it right. Talk about a clusterfuck

 

In my opinion I believe Israel is justified in their actions. I do feel for the innocent, this ALWAYS happens in war, but Lebanon has done nothing to rid themselves of Hezbollah, and they neither have the resources nor the political will to do so. The Islamic Fascists are hell bent on not only destroying Israel, but anyone else who does not subscribe to their beliefs. I don't doubt for a minute some whacko country over there wouldn't use NBC warfare if given the chance (nuclear, biological, chemical).

 

It certainly is a huge mess, but I believe the threat with terror states is real and needs to be stopped. You can argue that fighting them only makes them stronger, attracts more people to their cause, etc and it probably is true, but if left un-checked these organizations will stop at nothing to impose their will on the middle east and rest of the world. They know exactly what they are doing and they know that their terror works. The rest of the world is slowly being lulled into a sense of appeasement that if we just ignore them and don't fight they will go away. It ain't gonna happen.

 

Call me crazy but if you ask me all the trouble starts with Iran. Get them out of the picture and I think there will be much more stability in that part of the world.

 

Anyways you both have submitted some well written and well thought out opinions

 

 

[MattZ]

Everybody go do your jobs. The boss is coming.

 

If only the admins could solve the problem over there as easily as they can here.

[ben]

when I wake up on a Sunday morning and see bodies of children being pulled from a destroyed, civilian building where there is no proof of Hezbollah hiding out or having rocket launchers, that's a civilian target, appearing random to me. how is that targeting Hezbollah? I didn't say they were specifically targeting civilians, but randomly bombing the shit out of that country. the civilian death count in Lebanon is much, much higher than the deaths in Israel. my perception is slaughter, not looking for the terrorist group and killing them. where is the body count of Hezbollah terrorists that have been killed in this struggle? but whatever, this is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

Maybe they should stop using innocents as human shields. They know Israel's mission is to take out the sites from which they launch weapons, yet they continue to launch them from civilian areas. They don't care about their own people, yet Israel is expected to. Kind of strange.

[EL the Famous]

Hamas camp: Sun, fun ... indoctrination

What Palestinians view as respite from poverty, Israelis call terror training for youth

Matthew B. Stannard, Chronicle Staff Writer

Sunday, July 31, 2005

 

Seventeen-year-old Osama Abu Asi knows what Hamas stands for: swimming lessons, horseback riding, potato sack races and other summertime fun -- including religious education and paramilitary training.

 

This is summer camp in the Gaza Strip, as organized by Harakat al-Moqawama al-Islamiyah, the Islamic Resistance Movement, better known as Hamas -- which is officially regarded by the United States and many other countries as a terrorist organization that has killed hundreds of Israelis.

 

All summer long, at camps in playgrounds, in dirt-poor neighborhoods and on glittering Mediterranean beaches, Palestinian boys and young men get together in safe, well-managed, comfortable facilities decorated with the fluttering green flags of Hamas.

 

"In this camp we learn the important things of life -- good behavior, respect," said Osama, who was spending the summer at a Hamas-run camp on the beach outside Gaza City.

 

They also learn how to sing "intifada songs," including one urging them to "kill Zionists wherever they are, in the name of God."

 

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's spokesman Ra'anan Gissin described the summer camps as "indoctrination camps" comparable to the Hitler Youth camps, and accused Hamas of taking advantage of Gaza parents' desperate economic straits by offering to care for and feed their children while concealing the organization's true motives.

 

"This is where you create cultural hatred, so by the age of 15 or 16 you can send them out as suicide bombers. That's the whole purpose of them," he said.

 

Osama didn't see it that way. "They are not terrorists. We've been trained and taught to live and forgive. That is the lesson here."

 

As he spoke, fellow campers ran laughing through the shimmering breakers, rolling in the white sand. Nearby, a group of camp "graduates" -- young men now regulars in Hamas -- played volleyball in an enclosed area. Up the beach, families relaxed under tents, while women walked into the sea wearing long dresses and with their hair covered by a hijab, maintaining their modesty in the surf.

 

Other campers gave similar responses when asked what they were learning from the bearded instructors who stood nearby as they spoke and sometimes whispered suggested answers.

 

"Math, sports, swimming, Islamic behavior," said Ibrahim El-Kanua, 12, at a camp in a playground near the Jabaliya refugee camp where he lives. "I learned how to respect and honor."

 

The camps are especially popular with Palestinian families in Gaza, where Hamas is perceived as both less corrupt and more administratively competent than the ruling Fatah party of President Mahmoud Abbas.

 

The movement did well in municipal elections in December, January and May, and now controls 50 of 121 Palestinian local governments, mostly in the Gaza Strip. Observers believe it would have done equally well in parliamentary elections that have been postponed.

 

For Gaza parents, the camps provide an alternative for their children during the summer school holidays when there is little to offer in the way of recreation on Gaza's dusty streets, and kids are often seen playing in the raw sewage that flows to the sea.

 

"The Hamas summer camp is teaching them good behavior, teaching them to honor and respect people, instead of losing them to the streets," said 60-year-old Abdullah Fatah, as he came to check on his four grandchildren enrolled in a playground camp near his home in the Jabaliya refugee camp.

 

"(Hamas) follows Islam. Because they follow Islam, I trust them. I would follow them anywhere."

 

More than 80 percent of the 1.3 million people in the Gaza Strip live below the poverty line, with an unemployment rate of 50 percent. More than half of the population is 14 years old or younger.

 

"If Hamas won't watch them, who would keep them busy during the summer break?" asked Ibrahim Salah, an accountant who is also head of Hamas' education department. "When they're in the hands of Hamas, they're in good hands."

 

At Hamas camp, every camper gets a crisp green baseball cap. Camp officials said they have already given out 12,000 caps this year in 60 Gaza summer camps, out of 100,000 caps they ordered from a Chinese company.

 

"This is one of the basic things we can provide these kids -- a cap and a T-shirt," said Jasser Shameyah, a Hamas administrator. "We try to take them once in a while to a playground, special beaches with entry fees -- we can pay up to five shekels a kid."

 

At four separate camps visited earlier this month, the campers, who ranged in age from about 8 to 18, were organized into groups of a dozen or so with individual instructors, playing tug-of-war and wrestling, learning the Quran -- campers easily recited long sections by heart -- and munching on pita bread stuffed with hummus and a mystery meat as unidentifiable as that in any Boy Scout lunch.

 

Fatah, the ruling Palestinian party in the occupied territories, and other groups -- Islamic Jihad and Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, for example -- also offer camps. But a tour of camps in Gaza found most bearing the green flag of Hamas.

 

Some American and European programs offer summer camps in Gaza, which bring Jewish and Muslim children together and emphasize peace and reconciliation. But those groups tend to attract far fewer children, from mainly well-to-do backgrounds, and put them in a Western environment, one Hamas instructor asserted, where girls without head coverings are thrown in with boys, something many Muslim parents consider unacceptable.

 

Hamas, following its interpretation of Islamic principles, runs separate camps for boys and girls. The children pay for the camp on a sliding scale -- from a shekel (about 25 cents) to 10 shekels for the duration, depending on their ability to pay, Hamas officials said.

 

"The main reason for Hamas summer camp is just for fun, to take them from the killing environment. They've gone through things they weren't prepared for," Salah, the Hamas education chief, said. "The main thing is to teach them to love their nation, Palestine. We're all one nation."

 

But while Hamas leaders point to their social programs as the reason for the camps' popularity, Israelis -- and some Palestinians -- are far more critical of what the young campers are learning besides horseback riding and the backstroke.

 

At one beach camp, attended by approximately 100 kids, an instructor wore a heavy flannel shirt under which a webbed belt could be seen strapped to his stomach. Asked by a reporter what it was, he answered, with a broad smile, "Boom!"

 

The instructor led a group of young teenagers through marching drills on the sand -- facing movements, close quarter drill. With a smile at the reporter, he put a megaphone to his lips.

 

"What are you?" he called.

 

"Monsters!" the kids replied.

 

"What are you?!"

 

"MONSTERS!"

As the instructor, Sa'eb Dormush, stepped aside for an interview, a youth in the group shouted out "moqawama!" -- resistance.

 

"That is the first word they learn when they are born," Dormush said with a laugh. "This is the next generation."

 

Across camp, a group of younger children -- most between 10 and 12 -- sat in a circle in the sand singing one of the "intifada songs" they learn at camp. One boy sang verses in a rolling soprano as the others joined in on the one-word chorus.

 

"We don't want to sleep.

 

HA-A-MAS!

We want revenge.

 

HA-A-MAS!

Raise it up.

 

HA-A-MAS!

Rifle fire.

 

HA-A-MAS!

If it will take a thousand martyrs.

 

HA-A-MAS!

Kill Zionists.

 

HA-A-MAS!

Wherever they are.

 

HA-A-MAS!

In the name of God.

 

HA-A-MAS!"

Such activities prompt Israeli officials to look harshly at the camps, especially when combined with statements from Hamas officials such as Gaza leader Mahmoud al-Zahar, who said in a recent interview that despite the current shaky hudna (truce) with Israel, Hamas will continue to attack Jewish settlements in the West Bank until Israel disengages from that area. He also said that he remains devoted to the elimination of the state of Israel altogether.

 

"These summer camps are an industry of a culture of hatred," said Gissin, Sharon's spokesman. "They don't teach them how to fly kites; they teach them how to become walking bombs."

 

Gissin said the Palestinian Authority should take over supervision of the camps and their curriculum.

 

"We have extremist groups (in Israel)," Gissin added. ... "They probably also have summer camps. But the minute they engage in incitement, we throw the book at them."

 

Last September, several days after a double suicide bombing claimed by Hamas killed 16 Israelis on two buses in the southern desert town of Beersheba, Israeli helicopters attacked what Israeli government officials said was a Hamas training camp, located on a soccer field and playground that was used as a summer camp during the day. Fourteen Hamas members were killed.

 

According to Hamas, Palestinian Authority officials have cited the Hamas camps' military training activities as the reason to bar Hamas from holding such camps in Palestinian public schools -- a sign, say Hamas officials, that the Palestinian Authority fears the competition.

 

Hassan Al Khatib, assistant deputy minister of the Palestinian National Authority Ministry of Youth and Sport, rejected the notion.

 

He said the Palestinian Authority, in cooperation with UNICEF, runs more than 700 camps for children and teenagers in the West Bank and Gaza.

 

The official Palestinian camps focus on education and art, Al Khatib said -- political content does not go far beyond singing the national anthem and saluting the Palestinian flag.

 

"The Palestinians don't need to have the children learn military things and politics in the summer camps. They already learn it in the occupation," he said.

 

The Palestinian Authority would not permit Hamas to train children with guns, Al Khatib said, and frowns on songs encouraging attacks inside Israel.

 

More problematic, he said, was whether children are being taught terrorism or to value what the Palestinian Authority considers legitimate resistance. And the Palestinian Authority is weak, he said, and must pick its battles.

 

"If we have the ability to control, we will stop this kind of (incitement)," he said. "That's not what the PNA is trying to do right now. Right now we're trying to stop Kassams (rockets fired by Hamas) on settlers and suicide bombs in Israel."

 

Hamas, for its part, defends its militant curriculum as essentially defensive in nature.

 

"We would like to train them how to react when we get attacked by the IDF (Israel Defense Forces), by planes or tanks or foot patrols," said Bilal El-Nawajha, a Hamas camp director. "Because they like to go and see -- Gaza is so full of houses and people, and they get curious," he said. "When they get into a dangerous situation, we want them to know how to react."

 

On the beach, Osama was learning how to react, under the watchful eyes of his instructors.

 

"We've been instructed first to provide help to injured people, then to run away," he said.

 

What if he found an injured Jew? Osama stopped and looked at his instructors.

 

"Who shot him?" he asked.

 

Told to imagine he could not tell whether the Jew had been injured by Palestinians or Israelis, he paused again, looking from instructor to instructor, then replied.

 

"I would call a paramedic."

[embiggen]

Maybe they should stop using innocents as human shields. They know Israel's mission is to take out the sites from which they launch weapons, yet they continue to launch them from civilian areas. They don't care about their own people, yet Israel is expected to. Kind of strange.

 

yeah, it's all just fucked. I don't even know what to think...

[ben]

yeah, it's all just fucked. I don't even know what to think...

 

It really is sad. I am unbending in my support of Israel, and I 100% believe that what they are doing is the right thing. However, I do recognize that the majority of Arabs just want to get up in the morning, work, raise their families and not have bombs dropping on them. It is fucked.

[SlowBurn68]

I think once you use teenagers as guided bombs and innocent women and children as human shields - you forfeit any quarter the doctrine of proportionality would provide.

[kidsmoke]

If only the admins could solve the problem over there as easily as they can here.

 

Man, I wish. This is such heart-tearing stuff. For myself, I do my bit by trying to stay as informed as possible, trying to see all sides, and then supporting politicians who I think can make things better. I share with all of you who've posted in this thread the enormous frustration and pure sadness of the Israel/Lebanon situation. Of course I don't mean to make light of any of that situation!

 

I do hope we can manage a discourse here at VC that shows us to be intelligent and caring people, and I hope we can keep the slings and arrows to a minimum.

 

 

 

And again, Look busy, the boss is coming......he's gonna need you to go ahead and come in Saturday....

[mountain bed]

I do hope we can manage a discourse here at VC that shows us to be intelligent and caring people, and I hope we can keep the slings and arrows to a minimum.

To be honest,that's why this place is one of the coolest places in cyberspace,imo

I know it's one of the reasons I like coming here.

Tanks,Kidsmoke

 

Scott

[kidsmoke]

To be honest,that's why this place is one of the coolest places in cyberspace,imo

I know it's one of the reasons I like coming here.

Tanks,Kidsmoke

 

Scott

 

Well thank you, Scott! Yeah, I think VC manages better behavior than many online sites, especially where things of such an impassioned nature are being discussed.

[bjorn_skurj]

when I wake up on a Sunday morning and see bodies of children being pulled from a destroyed, civilian building where there is no proof of Hezbollah hiding out or having rocket launchers, that's a civilian target, appearing random to me. how is that targeting Hezbollah? I didn't say they were specifically targeting civilians, but randomly bombing the shit out of that country. the civilian death count in Lebanon is much, much higher than the deaths in Israel. my perception is slaughter, not looking for the terrorist group and killing them. where is the body count of Hezbollah terrorists that have been killed in this struggle? but whatever, this is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

I think the rockets Hezbollah fires into Israel are a lot more randomly aimed than the bombs Israel is dropping. I have a hard time believing that Israel bombed those kids on purpose. Israel may have its flaws, but their way of life is a lot closer to ours than even the most liberal Arab state.

Either way, for me, the whole thing crystallized when I got a picture of my niece, 2, holding an American flag on the Fourth of July. Hezbollah, Al-Qaida and all them dudes would want to kill my niece. The Israelis would not. The enemy of our enemy is our friend. Radical Islam holds that unless the entire world is made Muslim, Islam will be destroyed. In most places in the world, Islam has a hard time co-existing where it rubs up against other religions. I'm sure most Muslims are fine human beings. What they need to do is root out the terrorists among them ON THEIR OWN and embrace that other people are free to have whatever religion they want. Until that happens, I view all Muslims and the entire Islamic world, really, as being a threat to my life and my way of life. If it's really us or them, I choose us and feel no need to apologize for that. As-saalam alaikum.

 

And I apologize for putting up a misattributed speech.

[embiggen]

I wish I knew what the solution is, or even the right thing to say. I can see both sides, believe it or not. but it's still painful to see anyone suffer from the ravages of war. it's not that I'm totally against Israel. I guess I've just objected to their voracious war tactics; but at the same time I know a terrorist group like Hezbollah is even more bent on killing people. most of the time I don't like to say anything at all because in reality, I'm afraid. I have a 15 year old brother and it scares the shit out of me to imagine him having to go to war at any time. I'm not saying that this conflict will lead to something like that. I think seeing the innocent die makes me want to lash out.

[kidsmoke]

As the mother of a 19-yr-old and a 15-yr-old, I hear you, Jess.

[a.miller]

To be honest,that's why this place is one of the coolest places in cyberspace,imo.

I know it's one of the reasons I like coming here.

Tanks,Kidsmoke yes.gif

I agree. I don't feel like too many ( ) of my comments and questions are stupid, and even when they are someone politely and courteously addresses me.

 

Andy

[Synthesizer Patel]

but you've seen proof that they aren't? good gravy, this place sometimes. wow.

 

They have attacked Red Cross vans haven't they? They put the big Red Cross on the side not as a target, by the way. If they can see these vans good enough to hit them then they can see the cross on the side, or maybe that damn fog of war got in the way again.

 

Of course it is essential that they win, whatever the cost. So a few Red Cross Vans are fair game, there could be some of those injured terrorist dogs getting treatment. They must be hunted down just like every drug baron and sex pervert that stalks our pure earth. The State of Israel has been around for nearly 60 years now, damn it! They'll be drawing a pension soon. The fate of the world depends on their success. Many empires might have been turned to dust over the last couple of thousand years, but it's impossible to imagine it happening again. Soon society as we know it will crumble and fall into the sea and fish will rule the world! This of course will become a big issue of debate in 2,000 years, during history lessons, amongst schools of fish studying for their exams: Where did it all go wrong . . . again?

[WilcoFan]

Matt and Cryptique you both have it right. Talk about a clusterfuck

 

In my opinion I believe Israel is justified in their actions. I do feel for the innocent, this ALWAYS happens in war, but Lebanon has done nothing to rid themselves of Hezbollah, and they neither have the resources nor the political will to do so. The Islamic Fascists are hell bent on not only destroying Israel, but anyone else who does not subscribe to their beliefs. I don't doubt for a minute some whacko country over there wouldn't use NBC warfare if given the chance (nuclear, biological, chemical).

 

It certainly is a huge mess, but I believe the threat with terror states is real and needs to be stopped. You can argue that fighting them only makes them stronger, attracts more people to their cause, etc and it probably is true, but if left un-checked these organizations will stop at nothing to impose their will on the middle east and rest of the world. They know exactly what they are doing and they know that their terror works. The rest of the world is slowly being lulled into a sense of appeasement that if we just ignore them and don't fight they will go away. It ain't gonna happen.

 

Call me crazy but if you ask me all the trouble starts with Iran. Get them out of the picture and I think there will be much more stability in that part of the world.

 

 

Paul Wolfowitz? Is that you? What's up dog? How's the world bank going these days?

[darkstar]

Paul Wolfowitz? Is that you? What's up dog? How's the world bank going these days?

 

 

Yeah you busted me!

 

That's actually pretty funny Wolfowitz