Religion is the problem

[ction]

A little tolerance goes a long way...

 

In all areas of life, not just religion. In particular, exercising some tolerance and respect for differing opinions would be a welcome sight in terms of political debate. Especially on this board.

[JUDE]

In all areas of life, not just religion. In particular, exercising some tolerance and respect for differing opinions would be a welcome sight in terms of political debate. Especially on this board.

 

Wanker.

[embiggen]

this is the only god I worship:

 

[Atticus]

As has been said, more or less, by others here already, I don't feel the religion itself is the problem -- it's the twisting of religion by evil pigfuckers that is the problem.

 

I am not religious myself -- I have no use for it personally. But I do believe, for instance, that Jesus was a great man and a charismatic teacher, and that he wanted the best for humanity. Unfortunately, his teachings have been bastardized and turned into a source of wealth and power and a foundation for hatred by people like Pat Robertson, to name just one very prominent example. To me, Robertson is the epitome of the "evil pigfucker" I referenced earlier -- and he's not even the worst of them.

 

Religions have their "good" adherents and their "bad" ones. Sadly, the bad ones tend to be more adept at attracting followers, using the media to their advantage, lining their own pockets, and buying into the governmental power structure. This holds true not only in the U.S., but elsewhere.

 

The evil pigfuckers are more interested in increasing their own power and influence, and controlling the lives of as many people as they can, than in the honest application of the teachings of their professed religion. When religion becomes an issue of power and control and political agendas instead of love and community and charity, it has been bastardized to the point where it is no longer a religion, no longer about spirituality.

 

 

Stan: "Dude, don't say 'pigfucker' in front of Jesus."

 

(from The Spirit of Christmas)

 

[quarter23cd]

Too bad there isn't an extra commandment that says

 

"Thou Shalt Not Use Religion As A Means To Thine Own Ends, Nor Commit Violence In The Name Of Religion."

Seconded.

 

At the core of virtually every religious tradition, as far as I can tell, is what we commonly refer to as the Golden Rule--all that "do unto others" stuff. Sure, the other details vary, but really at the heart of it, that's it--and that's a beautiful thing to live by, and it is something that virtually everybody can agree on, religious or not. And, given that similarity, it is almost unfathomable the amount of division that arises between groups who don't happen to share the exact same beliefs.

 

That lack of acceptance is what, for the longest time, hardened me against the whole idea of religion.(yes, I'm aware of the irony) I consider myself agnostic, but it is only recently that I have begun to realize the depth of the resentment I had accumulated towards any sort of religion at all. It really only came to my attention recently because my oldest daughter is old enough now that Grandma has begun taking her to church with her. And something about that really irked me at first.

 

I grew up Cathoic, hated it, and moved away from it as soon as I was old enough to make my own decisions about such things. Why should I feel obligated to subject my kids to the same, just to appease the grandparents? What am I supposed to say to her when she comes home and has questions for me afterwards? I'm not really afraid of the questions. Its something she's bound to discover anyway, and I do want her to be exposed to as many sorts of ideas and beliefs as possible. But I've realized I have a knee-jerk reaction at the feeling of her being indoctrinated into something that I myself don't believe in. And there it is--I want her to believe what I believe. And that's the core of all the divisions. We don't like our loved ones--and, by extension, everyone else--having different beliefs from us.

 

As noted above, there are some good points about organized religion--a sense of community and the idea of service that is promoted and whatnot. So I don't mind her being exposed to that. The core values of kindness and charity--I hope I'm doing an okay job of instilling those, myself--and if they're reinforced by going to church with grandma sometimes, all the better. So I'm more okay with it now, and I'm actually looking forward to her questions now. I know its a lot to dump on a kid to say, "There are a whole bunch of different beliefs out there. You don't have to believe all of them or even any of them, but here's what they are..."

 

Uhh......sorry for the ramble...

[Analogman]

The recent flare-up with the Pope and Muslims just confirms what is clear in historical record: religion leads to more death and suffering in human history than healing and emancipation. Am I wrong?

 

 

 

why do spend your time starting stupid ass threads?

[Atticus]

Seconded.

 

At the core of virtually every religious tradition, as far as I can tell, is what we commonly refer to as the Golden Rule--all that "do unto others" stuff. Sure, the other details vary, but really at the heart of it, that's it--and that's a beautiful thing to live by, and it is something that virtually everybody can agree on, religious or not. And, given that similarity, it is almost unfathomable the amount of division that arises between groups who don't happen to share the exact same beliefs.

 

That lack of acceptance is what, for the longest time, hardened me against the whole idea of religion.(yes, I'm aware of the irony) I consider myself agnostic, but it is only recently that I have begun to realize the depth of the resentment I had accumulated towards any sort of religion at all. It really only came to my attention recently because my oldest daughter is old enough now that Grandma has begun taking her to church with her. And something about that really irked me at first.

 

I grew up Cathoic, hated it, and moved away from it as soon as I was old enough to make my own decisions about such things. Why should I feel obligated to subject my kids to the same, just to appease the grandparents? What am I supposed to say to her when she comes home and has questions for me afterwards? I'm not really afraid of the questions. Its something she's bound to discover anyway, and I do want her to be exposed to as many sorts of ideas and beliefs as possible. But I've realized I have a knee-jerk reaction at the feeling of her being indoctrinated into something that I myself don't believe in. And there it is--I want her to believe what I believe. And that's the core of all the divisions. We don't like our loved ones--and, by extension, everyone else--having different beliefs from us.

 

As noted above, there are some good points about organized religion--a sense of community and the idea of service that is promoted and whatnot. So I don't mind her being exposed to that. The core values of kindness and charity--I hope I'm doing an okay job of instilling those, myself--and if they're reinforced by going to church with grandma sometimes, all the better. So I'm more okay with it now, and I'm actually looking forward to her questions now. I know its a lot to dump on a kid to say, "There are a whole bunch of different beliefs out there. You don't have to believe all of them or even any of them, but here's what they are..."

 

Uhh......sorry for the ramble...

 

I enjoyed the ramble. Great points, and nice job putting your kid first.

[Guest ScottHoward]

why do spend your time starting stupid ass threads?

ABATT

[EL the Famous]

Since organized religion was created by humans, wouldn't that mean humans are the problem (not the answer)?

 

There you go. Most issues come from the individuals interpretation of the tennants of their faith (whatever it may be) or, conversely, their disbelief. I believe that regardless of what you do or don't believe, an invidual is responsible for their own actions and should be held accountable. To use sweeping generalizations and place blame on 'religion' versus the individuals who may do awful things in it's name, shows the same level stereotyping and intolerance many accuse said religious groups of. There is indeed a 'Golden Rule' and it is up to each of us to struggle as best we can to follow it...

 

Brahmanism:

"This is the sum of Dharma [duty]: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you". Mahabharata, 5:1517 "

 

Buddhism:

"...a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?" Samyutta NIkaya v. 353

"Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18

 

Christianity:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12, King James Version.

"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31, King James Version.

"...and don't do what you hate...", Gospel of Thomas 6. The Gospel of Thomas is one of about 40 gospels that were widely accepted among early Christians, but which never made it into the Christian Scriptures (New Testament).

 

Confucianism:

"Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" Analects 15:23

"Tse-kung asked, 'Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?' Confucius replied, 'It is the word 'shu' -- reciprocity. Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire.'" Doctrine of the Mean 13.3

"Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence." Mencius VII.A.4

 

Hinduism:

"This is the sum of duty: do not do to others what would cause pain if done to you." Mahabharata 5:1517

 

Islam:

"None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths."

 

Judaism:

"...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18

"What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a.

"And what you hate, do not do to any one." Tobit 4:15 6

 

Native American Spirituality:

"Respect for all life is the foundation." The Great Law of Peace.

"All things are our relatives; what we do to everything, we do to ourselves. All is really One." Black Elk

"Do not wrong or hate your neighbor. For it is not he who you wrong, but yourself." Pima proverb.

 

Sikhism:

"Compassion-mercy and religion are the support of the entire world". Japji Sahib

"Don't create enmity with anyone as God is within everyone." Guru Arjan Devji 259

"No one is my enemy, none a stranger and everyone is my friend." Guru Arjan Dev : AG 1299

 

Taoism:

"Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien.

"The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful." Tao Teh Ching, Chapter 49

 

Wicca:

"An it harm no one, do what thou wilt" (i.e. do what ever you will, as long as it harms nobody, including yourself). One's will is to be carefully thought out in advance of action. This is called the Wiccan Rede

 

Some philosophers' statements are:

Epictetus: "What you would avoid suffering yourself, seek not to impose on others." (circa 100 CE)

Kant: "Act as if the maxim of thy action were to become by thy will a universal law of nature."

Plato: "May I do to others as I would that they should do unto me." (Greece; 4th century BCE)

Socrates: "Do not do to others that which would anger you if others did it to you." (Greece; 5th century BCE)

Seneca: "Treat your inferiors as you would be treated by your superiors," Epistle 47:11 (Rome; 1st century CE)

 

Outside of that, if you really want to, you can find equal amounts of both the good and bad in religion (organized or unorganized)...just like you can find equal amounts of both the good and bad in the political/judicial system, music/art, freedom of speech, etc. I won't argue that far too many people to count have been hurt/killed in the name of religion, but i'd be interested to see the almost equally impossible to calculate % of how many lives have been helped because of it. The optimist in me believes it's at least equal, hopefully greater.

 

I've said it a million times, I respect everyone's religious beliefs or right to not believe. Granted, when my faith is unjustly slandered/insulted, as it's part of who I am, i'll defend it.

[tugmoose]

should answer all your questions.

[marino13]

should answer all your questions.

 

Tug, are you an American? If so, do you agree with everything that Bush says and does? After all, he is a leader of Americans, so you must stand for everything he does, right?

 

Please don't use some religious fanatic to paint a broad stroke over religion. It is short-sighted and no less stereotypical than profiling people because of race, sex, or sexual preference.

 

Do you not realize that there is a large, silent population of Christians in every community that are not judgemental and hateful people? They do many good things and are accepting of all walks of life, just as Jesus was. Unfortunately, there are some Christians that don't act like him and instead act more like the people he condemned the most at the time, the Pharisees. Religious people are not perfect either, it's just the ones that are judgemental make themselves an easy target every time they fail.

[EL the Famous]

should answer all your questions.

 

'Good evening, godless sodimites!'

 

Actually, most of me and my christian pals do actually hate all the fags and hope their pedophile asses die of AIDS...just like it says in the bible.

[ponch1028]

If this board can't even come to a consensus over whether or not Tweedy's new songs are on par with his previous songs, what kind of consensus are we going to get over organized religion / fundamentalist fanaticism / and our own existential narrative on our religious/spiritual upbringing (or scarring for some)?

 

That said, I have found most of these posts worth reading and commend those who attempted to use reason, thought, clarity, and sensitivity to their posts - now if only the rest of the world would follow suit.

 

On a sidebar, I'm not entirely sure what the Pope was trying to communicate - but right now there are two things that irk me just as much if not more than divisive and polarizing religious figures

 

(1) Comparing current and/or modern people to Hitler. I'm sorry, but in my humble opinion, if you compare the Pope or Bush or whoever to Hitler, it only makes you look like an ass. 6,000,000!!!!! And an entire world at war. Get some historical perspective.

 

(2) I really empathize with progressive and moderate Muslims, who are law-abiding citizens and decent human beings - but it's getting harder and harder for me to defend middle-east Islam as a whole when everytime someone says or draws something that they consider offensive that they respond with violence. Church bombings, murdering a nun - it is utter madness. When is it going to stop?

Edited September 19, 2006 by ponch1028

[ction]

(1) Comparing current and/or modern people to Hitler. I'm sorry, but in my humble opinion, if you compare the Pope or Bush or whoever to Hitler, it only makes you look like an ass. 6,000,000!!!!! And an entire world at war. Get some historical perspective.

 

 

Not current or modern, but comparing Stalin to Hitler might have some merit.

[ponch1028]

Not current or modern, but comparing Stalin to Hitler might have some merit.

 

Now, that I'll buy.

[Buford T. Justice]

I think Jesus Camp for kids in North Dakota is the solution. It's the subject of a feature film. And apparently, a story on ABC News (would have preferred Katie Couric to attack this topic).

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=co1_9lR9EpM

[Reni]

Everyone is so quick to point out all the evil done in the name of religion......what about people who use their faith to carry out selfless acts of kindness and love??

 

Mother Teresa? Gandhi? MLK?

 

People I know personally? I believe I have mentioned this before......My mom lived in a hut in Haiti for years - spending her days caring for orphaned babies and sick children because her faith called her to. Graham's mom travels to areas in Colombia that are flashpoints for paramilitary and guerilla violence against nonaligned/peaceful communities to be a witness for peace......because her faith calls her to. There are so many people, who are unknown to the world, who dedicate their lives to following their religion in a peaceful, beautiful way.

[caliber66]

My dad has been to the Gulf Coast (at least) four times in the past year with this group. I don't believe they have murdered anyone in the name of their faith, but I know they have gutted and rebuilt a SHITLOAD of houses.

[tugmoose]

Tug, are you an American? If so, do you agree with everything that Bush says and does? After all, he is a leader of Americans, so you must stand for everything he does, right?

 

Please don't use some religious fanatic to paint a broad stroke over religion. It is short-sighted and no less stereotypical than profiling people because of race, sex, or sexual preference.

 

Do you not realize that there is a large, silent population of Christians in every community that are not judgemental and hateful people? They do many good things and are accepting of all walks of life, just as Jesus was. Unfortunately, there are some Christians that don't act like him and instead act more like the people he condemned the most at the time, the Pharisees. Religious people are not perfect either, it's just the ones that are judgemental make themselves an easy target every time they fail.

Actually, I wasn't being all that serious - it was more: "Hey, check out this whacko."

 

I appreciate your concern, though.

[awatt]

I was thinking a lot about this when I got on the bus and cranked on the ipod shuffle (D. Boon got my day started) on the way in to the office this morning. Thought about it most of the day, too. Hell, I think about this shit most days not only because of the job, but because religion, like Elvis, is everywhere you look in culture. Did you see article in NYTimes today about Fox creating a special movie-making production company for religious flicks (most expected to go straight to DVD)? I find myself agreeing with most sentiments posted here--religion can be good and bad, being religious/spiritual is quite different from institutional affiliations and organized religion, and most folks are searching for some kind of meaning, a basic religious and human endeavor.

 

I also agree with wise Aman--I do start stupid ass threads! But I also concur with Ponch and enjoyed reading the smart, thoughtful, and sensitive posts so far (at least most of them ).

 

[mountain bed]

Some of these could be culled for a nice coda to the book...Just sayin'

[marino13]

Actually, I wasn't being all that serious - it was more: "Hey, check out this whacko."

 

I appreciate your concern, though.

 

 

I apologize if I took it the wrong way, it's just something that I'm passionate about. I'll get down off the soapbox now.

[Guest Rufer]

religious/spiritual is quite different from institutional affiliations and organized religion, and most folks are searching for some kind of meaning, a basic religious and human endeavor.

 

 

How is it different? Are you saying you can't be religious/spiritual and have institutional affiliations or belong to an organized religion? Many members of organized religions are members out of that search for meaning and it is through that community, fellowship, and dialogue that these meanings become clearer to them.

[LouieB]

should answer all your questions.

1898 BC?? I didn't know the Bible had a timeline that exact.

 

LouieB

[Synthesizer Patel]

should answer all your questions.

 

The Lady Doth Protest Too Much, Me Thinks! He's got a one track mind.

 

If you close your eyes and listen he sounds a bit like BA Baracus - "AND THE PROSPERITY OF FOOLS SHALL DESTORY THEM!" Proverb 1:20-32, "AND I AIN'T GETTIN' ON NO PLANE FOOL!"