MLB 2007

[MrRain422]

You must really hate the hidden ball trick, too.

[embiggen]

Jeter isn't married.

[Lammycat]

I'm late to the discussion on the A-rod deal here today but I'm pretty sure the reason it doesn't happen often (an opposing player shouting out "mine" to mess a fielder up) is because of the potential injury risk involved. And it doesn't happen often.

 

It may not be in the rule book and whether or not it's considered "fair" play is another issue, but guys going after popped up balls get injured often (see: Ryan Freel recently) because of mixed calls/lack of calls/etc. when chasing down the pop-up.

 

I also think it'd be being discussed today whether it was A-rod or not. It is bush-league to do something like that. The hidden ball trick, faking a throw coming in, etc. don't have the risk of injury factor involved that calling "mine" or whatever does.

[MrRain422]

But the injury risk is in players not hearing someone call for it (or hearing them but going for the ball anyway). If they hear someone calling for it, then they back off. I don't see how a collision could be caused by something like this.

 

I guess it's up to the players to decide what the "code" is or whatever, but I think anyone who can make it to the Majors should be used to hearing all sorts of things coming from every direction, and has to learn to tell who is yelling what. Fans yell "I got it" when an outfielder is going for a flyball all the time (and no, I'm not suggesting that players should be held to the same low standard as the fans, just pointing out that it's something that players deal with every game and should be able to account for). The reason we're hearing about this isn't because A-Rod is an asshole (although he may be -- that's for everyone to decide for themselves I guess), but because the fielder was embarrassed and felt like whining about it.

[darkstar]

I am enjoying the Yankee's melt down thus far this season

 

 

 

EDIT: any bets on if 'ol Slappy McBluelips gets thrown at next time they play Toronto?

[bobbob1313]

I'm late to the discussion on the A-rod deal here today but I'm pretty sure the reason it doesn't happen often (an opposing player shouting out "mine" to mess a fielder up) is because of the potential injury risk involved. And it doesn't happen often.

 

It may not be in the rule book and whether or not it's considered "fair" play is another issue, but guys going after popped up balls get injured often (see: Ryan Freel recently) because of mixed calls/lack of calls/etc. when chasing down the pop-up.

 

I also think it'd be being discussed today whether it was A-rod or not. It is bush-league to do something like that. The hidden ball trick, faking a throw coming in, etc. don't have the risk of injury factor involved that calling "mine" or whatever does.

 

Freel didn't even make the catch the other day. The ball fell out of his glove and the other guy on the team put it back in his glove before anyone noticed. It was a head's up play, just like the Arod one.

 

This is a part of the game, and you should do whatever you can to win. I don't see this as any different from the hidden ball trick, or perfecting a balk so that the ump can't tell it's a balk, or blocking the bag with your foot so that the runner can't get his hand on it, or running out of the basepaths to break up a double play, or any number of things that could be seen asmorally wrong but not illegal.

 

I mean, technically, a runner who runs out of the basepaths to break up a double play is doing something illegal, but it's a part of the game. I feel like this has been a part of the game forever (Shit, Willie Mays Hayes did it in Major League!) and it's only an issue because it's A-rod.

[Lammycat]

A-rod has carved a name for himself with this, though. In Moneyball he's accused of stealing signs from the A's while at bat. The slap. This.

 

Again, this is not something that is commonly accepted as "part of the game." There's also the possibilty that it violates baserunning rules (not just etiquette) in that it interferes with a fielder's ability to make the play.

 

ed. Freel physically collided with his teammate (Hopper, I think) and was down on the ground for 10 minutes or so before leaving on a stretcher....

[darkstar]

Jim Rome had an interesting segment about this on his show today. His opinion was that there are certain unwritten rules in baseball, such as phantom tags on runners, coming off the base early turning a double play, etc. He opined that A-Rod's thing last night was a bush leauge play that goes against the un-written rules. He did make a point of stating that no one on the Yankees was sticking up for him (in post game interviews) and that A-rod's assertion that that happens all the time is bunco.

 

Usually I think Rome is kind of an idiot but I gotta agree on this point. Though a huge Sox fan and no fan of A-rod I would call it bush leauge if anyone did this in an MLB game. I understand trying to win with gamesmanship and playing hard but this whole thing reeks of little leauge play. What's next? A-rod yelling "hey batter, batter, batter swiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing" when he's at third?

 

It's been said in previous posts but you will never see this kind of shit from guys like Possada, Jeter, etc.

 

That being said it's amazing the shit this guy gets himself into. He's all over the papers the other day with the girlfriend thing, then pretty much gets a free pass later on with all the sports world discussing Kobe Bryant's trade me manifesto instead of A-rods shit, then the jerk goes and does this stupid crap and gets all embroiled in another situation.

 

It's amazing to me that a player of his ability can't seem to keep from acting like a little bitch out on the ballfield.

[MrRain422]

It's amazing to me that people are so relentless in trying to create scandal around a guy who is one of the best players in the history of the game, and relatively devoid of real scandal.

 

The fact that none of his teammates were standing up for him reflects much worse on the rest of the team than it does on A-Rod, IMO (although their thirdbase coach, Larry Bowa, did defend him, and corroborates A-Rod's claim that he just yelled "Hey", not "I got it").

 

I don't even like A-Rod, and yet I find myself defending him constantly. Weird.

 

Edit: Could someone please link me to where A-Rod said that this happens all the time? I saw him say that it's common for opposing players sitting in the dugout to yell things at a thirdbaseman going after a foul ball, but I didn't see him say that baserunners did it all the time.

[bobbob1313]

Jim Rome had an interesting segment about this on his show today. His opinion was that there are certain unwritten rules in baseball, such as phantom tags on runners, coming off the base early turning a double play, etc. He opined that A-Rod's thing last night was a bush leauge play that goes against the un-written rules. He did make a point of stating that no one on the Yankees was sticking up for him (in post game interviews) and that A-rod's assertion that that happens all the time is bunco.

 

Usually I think Rome is kind of an idiot but I gotta agree on this point. Though a huge Sox fan and no fan of A-rod I would call it bush leauge if anyone did this in an MLB game. I understand trying to win with gamesmanship and playing hard but this whole thing reeks of little leauge play. What's next? A-rod yelling "hey batter, batter, batter swiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing" when he's at third?

 

It's been said in previous posts but you will never see this kind of shit from guys like Possada, Jeter, etc.

 

That being said it's amazing the shit this guy gets himself into. He's all over the papers the other day with the girlfriend thing, then pretty much gets a free pass later on with all the sports world discussing Kobe Bryant's trade me manifesto instead of A-rods shit, then the jerk goes and does this stupid crap and gets all embroiled in another situation.

 

It's amazing to me that a player of his ability can't seem to keep from acting like a little bitch out on the ballfield.

 

"acting like a little bitch out on the ballfield"

 

Hah. I can only think of one occassion where that could apply (The Slap). I've never seen a guy get so much crap for something so small. It's a heads up play. The only reason the Blue Jays are mad is because he showed them up and made them look like fools. I'd be shocked if he's the only guy who does this, and it shouldn't even matter. It's no different than a defender in basketball run out next to the guy with the ball and calling for it, or (such as in the 82 CWS) the team faking a missed pickoff to with the bullpen guys pretending to look for the ball. If you fall for it, it's your own fault, and thats the crux of the issue. If McDonald doesn't let it get to him, he makes the play.

[darkstar]

Gotta disagree with you Earl, thats not heads-up thats bush leauge stuff. It's just my opinion though....I'll agree to disagree with you.......wait don't they sing that in Side With The Seeds?

[bobbob1313]

I just don't get how it's any more bush league than any number of other things that are "allowed". I think the majority of the uproar about this is solely becase it was Arod who did it. Again, it wouldn't be an issue of the Jays player kept his head in the game. I half think that watching the video he may have just lost the ball in the lights. He didn't look like he was in position to make the cacth, so he blamed it on him.

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x24pdc_bush-league-arod

[Lammycat]

Hah. I can only think of one occassion where that could apply (The Slap). I've never seen a guy get so much crap for something so small. It's a heads up play. The only reason the Blue Jays are mad is because he showed them up and made them look like fools. I'd be shocked if he's the only guy who does this, and it shouldn't even matter. It's no different than a defender in basketball run out next to the guy with the ball and calling for it, or (such as in the 82 CWS) the team faking a missed pickoff to with the bullpen guys pretending to look for the ball. If you fall for it, it's your own fault, and thats the crux of the issue. If McDonald doesn't let it get to him, he makes the play.

How this is the same as trying to deke a guy with a large soft (compared to a baseball) basketball is beyond me. It has nothing to do with McDonald letting it "get" to him and everything to do with potential interference by the baserunner, putting opposing players at unnecessary risk of injury, and being classless.

 

The fielder is looking up into the sky (ceiling) trying to make a catch. If he doesn't decipher the voice calling for the ball in the second or two he has to catch it he's letting a guy "get" to him? Come on. If it were considered a common and fair play then guys would be dropping balls constantly in the infield.

 

I realize that it may seem like people are jumping on Arod but the fact is he brings it on himself with stuff like this. He makes it pretty easy to dislike him. Smirking on the bag after the "play" last night doesn't help, either. This has nothing to do with his abilities to play the game but with the way he chooses to play it.

[darkstar]

I just don't get how it's any more bush league than any number of other things that are "allowed". I think the majority of the uproar about this is solely becase it was Arod who did it. Again, it wouldn't be an issue of the Jays player kept his head in the game. I half think that watching the video he may have just lost the ball in the lights. He didn't look like he was in position to make the cacth, so he blamed it on him.

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x24pdc_bush-league-arod

 

I agree with the fact that it seems no more bush than other stuff...I can't give a concrete reason why it's bush I just ( IMO) know it is...it's kind of an intangible thing. Some people will be fine with it others won't be. And yeah your probably right that it's a big deal 'cause it's A-rod, but then again no one (or the media) cares about some journey-man type of guy doing stuff, but when your the $250 million man, everything will be scrutinized.

 

I think that he said " I got it" or something to that effect. I never played third or short ( I was an all defense, no hit catcher) but any time the ball is hit in the air between 2nd and 3rd it's always the SS call. It appears to me that they guy was reacting to what he presumed was his SS calling him off the play. Anyways.......at least it provides some fodder for debate and another reason for me to detest A-Rod ( I will admit to never liking this guy, ever. I don't diminish his skills....he is a great player, I just don't like the way he comes across)

[quarter23cd]

You must really hate the hidden ball trick, too.

Not to mention the totally unfair voodoo influence of rally-caps and/or monkeys.

[bobbob1313]

How this is the same as trying to deke a guy with a large soft (compared to a baseball) basketball is beyond me. It has nothing to do with McDonald letting it "get" to him and everything to do with potential interference by the baserunner, putting opposing players at unnecessary risk of injury, and being classless.

 

The fielder is looking up into the sky (ceiling) trying to make a catch. If he doesn't decipher the voice calling for the ball in the second or two he has to catch it he's letting a guy "get" to him? Come on. If it were considered a common and fair play then guys would be dropping balls constantly in the infield.

 

McDonald has played 59 of his 472 major league games at 3rd base, he's not a natural third baseman and so he's probably not used to guys doing it. And so yeah, it "got" to him. Arod says guys do it all of the time, and I'm not surprised by it, it's a good smart strategy.

 

It's not the same as deking a guy with a basketball. It's the same as a defender calling for the ball and tricking the guy with the ball to throwing it to him. There are literally hundreds of parallels in sports (faking a spike and throwing for a touchdown is a pretty famous example) that are designed to trick your opponent and give you a (potentially) unfair advantage.

 

This is just piling on Arod, no question.

 

I think that he said " I got it" or something to that effect.

 

I mean, I know he's not the best sources, but he says he said "hey" and Larry Bowa (the 3rd base coach) backed him up...

[Spawn's dad]

cut the guy a break...he was hitting hot hookers the night before and by all reports it was a 4 seasons, and not a Holiday Inn Express.

[darkstar]

cut the guy a break...he was hitting hot hookers the night before and by all reports it was a 4 seasons, and not a Holiday Inn Express.

 

 

[MrRain422]

John McDonald was not the thirdbaseman on the play in question, Earl. Howie Clark was. McDonald was playing shortstop at the time, and so he was the one that Clark apparently thought was calling for it.

 

Anyway, I tried asking this earlier, but I'll give it another go. How would the media have reacted if Jeter had done this? Yeah, I know, I know, Jeter wouldn't do it. But hypothetically, if he had, how do you all think the media/public reaction would have gone?

[bobbob1313]

I don't think we can say for sure if Jeter would have or wouldn't have done this. Why do we automatically assume that? I think it's just as likely that any player would do this, and I think it does happen a lot, I just think most fielders are used to it. The guy in question has played 16 games at the major league level at 3rd Base and played most of his games in the Minors at 1st base or outfield. I think it was a combination of the "hey" mixed with the fielder being uncomfortable playing the position (not to mention that it was indoors and could have easily been lost in the lights/white roof).

 

But if Jeter does this, there's no doubt in my mind they'd commend him for playing hard and probably do a "top 5 grittiest jeter moments" countdown.

[Lammycat]

I think it's just as likely that any player would do this, and I think it does happen a lot, I just think most fielders are used to it.

 

But if Jeter does this, there's no doubt in my mind they'd commend him for playing hard and probably do a "top 5 grittiest jeter moments" countdown.

How are you coming to the conclusion of your opinion that this is common for a base runner to do? I've yet to read/hear anybody calling this a common occurrence in MLB.

 

I think any player, including Jeter, would be getting called out on it today. The fact that it's Arod doesn't help, as he makes being a punching bag easy.

[MattZ]

Anyway, I tried asking this earlier, but I'll give it another go. How would the media have reacted if Jeter had done this? Yeah, I know, I know, Jeter wouldn't do it. But hypothetically, if he had, how do you all think the media/public reaction would have gone?

 

I touched on this earlier. If Jeter did it, he probably would not have caught nearly as much grief for it. But that's because he doesn't have a rap for being a bush league player. The media would be more willing to cut him some slack. ARod, fairly or unfairly, has the rap of being a bush league player. Its the same reason why certain basketball players get whistled in for flagrant fouls when they simply make hard fouls. ARod's reputation precedes him.

 

That being said, I also mentioned earlier that Jeter gets his fair share of criticism in the media. He stayed out of a fight a few years back and was heavily criticized in the tabloids. And he didn't defend ARod last year and was criticized for that too.

 

EDIT: and, not that I am the king of baseball knowledge or experience, but I have watched baseball for a long time and never seen a player do what ARod is accused of doing.

[bobbob1313]

How are you coming to the conclusion of your opinion that this is common for a base runner to do? I've yet to read/hear anybody calling this a common occurrence in MLB.

 

Mostly because it seems like an obvious thing to do. I don't have any information at the time (i.e. I'm too lazy to look), but it really doesn't sound too far fetched that many players do it. Maybe no ALL of the time, but probably often enough that it shouldn't be a big deal, and I don't think it would be a big deal if it had been someone else.

 

That being said, I also mentioned earlier that Jeter gets his fair share of criticism in the media. He stayed out of a fight a few years back and was heavily criticized in the tabloids. And he didn't defend ARod last year and was criticized for that too.

He was criticized for a real reason, mostly that he came out and defend Giambi in 05 but refused to do so with Arod.

 

2006, re: ARod:

 

"I said the only thing I wasn't going to do was tell the fans who they should boo and who they shouldn't boo."

 

And 2005, in re: Giambi:

 

Jeter implored Yankees fans to stop booing Giambi. "The fans have to start cheering for him," Jeter said. "If you're a Yankee fan, you want us to win and we need Jason ."

[MattZ]

He was criticized for a real reason, mostly that he came out and defend Giambi in 05 but refused to do so with Arod.

 

I know he was criticized for a real reason. That was my point -- if there is a real reason, he gets criticized for it. Jeter is certainly a media darling in NYC, but he is not above criticism when it is warranted.

 

If he had done this instead of ARod, I think he would have been criticized, but would not have gotten it to the degree that ARod has.

[MrRain422]

EDIT: and, not that I am the king of baseball knowledge or experience, but I have watched baseball for a long time and never seen a player do what ARod is accused of doing.

 

I don't think I have either, although I also can only think of a few instances where I could hear what someone on the field of play was saying/yelling.