How Much Music Theory Does Jeff Know?

[deepseacatfish]

Always try new things, and let your own ideas rule your music!

I guess we do agree.

 

 

PS. I do know and use theory, and like you said it can give clarity sometimes or help provide structure/direction. Inevitably the musical ideas and the real drive to make music comes from someplace that is just there and develops through years of listening to and practicing music--and that's where every musician trained or not feeds from whether they know theory or not. Also, Beethoven does have some sweet tunes.

[jff]

I put beethoven on there because he is the smartest person who's ever walked this earth.

 

I thought that was Leonardo da Vinci.

 

Learning music theory increases your musical vocabulary. It does not turn you into Yngwie Malmsteen. It has nothing to do with "guitar technique" or playing a lot of notes really fast. It won't turn your band into Mahavishnu Orchestra. It has to do with notes and chords and how they work together, allowing a musician to choose which notes to play and which not to play, rather than wiggling your fingers until you accidentally stumble onto something that sounds good.

[W(TF)]

I put beethoven on there because he is the smartest person who's ever walked this earth. Listening to him would probably increase your musical ability more than learning what all that other stuff meant.

 

I dunno, listening to Beethoven tends to knock me flat on my ass...same as Coltrane. But I'll be the first to admit I'm not musically gifted in any way. All my attempts to play instruments have been horribly pathetic.

[lost highway]

Jeff did take a crash course in music with the fellow from Television, which I believe included an overview of the keys, scales and chords. When Nels Cline plays a solo I can tell he is distinguishing each chord in the progression and what notes are part of that chord and what notes are good passing tones between those chord tones, he is often thinking modally. As opposed to just running over the same blues scale for all the chords.

 

I get the feeling Jeff is doing something similar but less academically, I think he's played those songs so many times that he probably sees a picture on the fretboard of what notes work during which parts of the tune, as opposed to thinking "oh the flatted 5th on the third chord of spiders is always awesome after the minor 3rd." That's just my guess. There are plenty of great rockers who know theory and who do not. Don't buy the hype: music majors who are too pretentious to play folk chord progressions aren't listening, likewise rockers who think that theory turns you into Malmsteen are anti-intellectual.

[cash]

I dunno, listening to Beethoven tends to knock me flat on my ass...same as Coltrane. But I'll be the first to admit I'm not musically gifted in any way. All my attempts to play instruments have been horribly pathetic.

 

try piano, and that helps your theory more than playing any other instrument actually. Just because its so visual and you can do everything on your own. I played trombone for the longest time and it wasn't until i started to play piano that things really started making sense to me.

 

I took A.P. Theory in high school and fell in love with it. Starting spetember I'll have an independent Theory class where it's just me and my teacher because I've taken every theory class my school has to offer

[GtrPlyr]

I've played music for 22 years, started when I was 14. I began with my Dad's acoustic guitar and his Mel Bay guitar books. This gave me the skills to tune and play little single note melodies. After about 8 months of this I started begging for an electric guitar. I got one for Christmas on the condition I take lessons. So I went dutifully once a week and learned the modes, cycle of fifths--in-between learning the latest Rush or Iron Maiden song that is. Anyway, after awhile I found that the lessons weren't all that fun anymore and I stopped taking them. At this point I was reading magazines like Guitar Player and was listening to a lot of records, so my musical education was still going on as far as I was concerned. Anyway, to make this long story short. I developed into a pretty good player in my younger days, my head full of theory and copped licks, but my songwriting skills were not all that great. Now years later I find my creativity at a level my younger self could never attain. So did theory help me? Maybe, but it wasn't until I forgot what I learned that I got closer to my own voice.

 

I look at writers, and the whole writing class thing in the same way. A lot of these courses help you to understand how things work, unfortunately they also develop these rules that can inhibit your natural inclinations: I really want to write this way, but the rules say that I should do it this other way instead. What you end up with in a lot of cases are competent writers who all sound the same, no individuality.

 

I don't believe that true artistic expression can be taught, it has to be discovered and uncovered. I hate to say it, but you either have it or you don't. Theory and lessons will only get you so far, they can't make you into something you're not.

[W(TF)]

Kinda inclined to agree with GP on this. You either outgrow and leave behind your music teacher(s), or, at best, you eventually become one yourself - teaching theory to those who "might" have the gift.

[noyes]

this from an interview with neil young. i love how he answeres the question. everything about it is dead on in my opinion.

JO: What are your views on people going to college to learn guitar?

 

NY: Paints a pretty doomed picture of the future, doesn't it?[Laughs.] First of all, it doesn't matter if you can play a scale. It doesn't matter if your technique is good. If you have feelings that you want to get out through music, that's what matters. If you have the ability to express yourself and you feel good when you do it, then that's why you do it. The technical side of it is a completely boring drag, as far as I'm concerned. I mean, I can't play fast. I don't even know the scales. A lot of the notes that I go for are notes that I know aren't there. They're just not there, so you can hit any note. I'm just on another level as far as all that goes. I appreciate these guys who play great. I'm impressed by these metal bands with their scale guys. Like I go, "Gee, that's really something." I mean, Satriani and Eddie Van Halen are genious guitar players. They're unbelievable musicians of the highest caliber. But I can't relate to it. One note is enough.

 

a-goddamn-men.

i respect people that know an awful lot about music theory and all

but to belittle those who only know the fundamentals and/or little theory is a bit ridiculous.

i know my share of music theory and have an endless desire to learn, which i think is a very important thing.

but i hardly know any scales or notes the way i do on the first instrument i learned (piano)

but i love playing guitar and have an almost childlike enthusiasm for it

which in turn allows me to create and play music. which comes from listening to music intently.

like how Miles Davis gave Hendrix a piece of sheet music with tons of notation before going somewhere

to come back and find out that Hendrix had no idea what any of it was.

it hardly matters, whether you're professional or not, if you know a lot about theory.

saying you have to know is a very classical mindset. and a narrowminded one at that.

all it really takes is creativity, some sort of knowledge, and enthusiasm and love for music. everything else falls by the wayside.

[WilcoFan]

Not to take anything away from Lennon's obvious talent, but he also had George Martin, a classically trained musician, to help him refine his ideas into the finished products.

 

 

Tweedy also had Jay Bennett for a while who is pretty well versed in music theory. I think having him around obviously helped.

[coast to coast]

The question is pointless. Completely.

 

It doesn't necessarily matter if you do or don't study it as your examples have shown (Dylan, Young etc...).

 

Studying isn't gonna make you better or worse at music (in terms of music you like), you'll just be doing it a different way. Rules aren't necessarily good or bad.

 

As for Wilco - they follow lots of rules about how rock is made and played. Glenn is probably well schooled in music theory and Jeff and Nels (for example) probably know tons even if they learned it intuitively and may not know the scholarly words for certain terms. Doesn't mean they follow all rules - doesn't mean they don't follow some rules. Music is inherently about structure in some way or the other. "Rules" will always be there.

 

If you're thinking about doing it, I'd recommend it because it may open up your mind to all sorts of possibilities you hadn't come across in music and will probably make you more adept at expressing your musical ideas. Mainly...don't worry about it, just try to enjoy or be interested or stimulated by the music you make and listen to.

[W(TF)]

Just proves there's no "right" answer, it depends on the individual. For me, lessons always made me feel stupid. Noodling around on my own and figuring out how to play something gave me confidence. Not that it was justified. lol

[Beltmann]

I dunno. I think of the 180-rule for shooting conversations for film, which is a technique that prevents audience spatial disorientation. You can write the most inspired dialogue, and direct the most inspired performances, but if you don't know where to put the camera to clearly communicate that inspiration, all your creativity ends up washed out. It largely remains locked in your head. I think the same thing might be true for music: While creativity and inspiration are the most important ingredients (by a wide margin), an understanding of fundamentals might help at least some artists to realize their ideas in the most precise way--in other words, theory might be the tool that helps them take what's in their head and externalize it with the smallest degree of alteration or compromise.

 

I guess I agree with cryptique that theory serves only to "grease the rails" towards effectively conveying your inspiration, but I wouldn't minimize the importance of that greasing.

 

Is it possible that learning theory might hinder pure expression? I suppose so. But it's equally possible that learning theory--and knowing how to most effectively subvert the rules--might break open the floodgates.

[foolnrain97]

I took two years of music theory and a year each of music and art history. Aside from a couple of my gen ed requirements, I cannot think of classes that I have disliked more. As someone who enjoys these things, for me, there was no better way to spoil them. The whole time I was learning chords, progressions, modulations, exceptions to every rule there is, dates, places, names, etc, I couldn't stop thinking, why can't I just enjoy this? Why can't I just listen to this and enjoy it for what it is? Why can't I just look at this and love it or hate it? Why do I have to know what makes it "good" or "bad"? I still have not come up with a good answer to those questions. I understand that for someone like me(a music and art major) theory and history are good things to know for the sole purpose of being able to talk to your peers with the same vocabulary. But, that kind of all goes down the drain when you want to talk about music with someone like Jeff Tweedy who maybe doesn't know much about either of those subjects.

 

My dislike for theory started when I realized two things:

1. the study of music theory started when people started picking apart music that had already been written. So really, I see the "rules" of music theory being more of a collection of trends that people studied and wrote down. If theory had started earlier or later, I think the "basics" would be completely different based on the compositional trends at the time.

2. For every "rule" that theory establishes, there are exceptions. I find this frustrating at best. If there are exceptions to all the rules, how can there be rules? To me, it comes back to the collection of trends thing. This composer did this a bunch and a lot of people liked his music and a bunch of composers did a lot of the same things, kind of like how they all wore frilly shirts and powdered wigs at a certain point in time.

 

More knowledge of music theory will not improve Jeff Tweedy's ability to write a song. Mostly because music theory has nothing to do with lyrical writing. True, his playing MAY improve, but learning music theory is not the same as practicing your instrument. Music theory is a science that could be learned without any knowledge of how to play an instrument.

 

In no way do I see knowing definitions of musical terms and the rules of music theory as being comparable to being able to express yourself through your instrument. I think that the boys of Wilco do a great job of expressing themselves and that they don't need to change a thing. True, Glenn is "classically" trained by one of the greatest teachers in the country, but then again not really. When he talks about his education, he states that drumset was his concentration(drumset is not considered a classical percussion instrument) and that his teacher and him covered concepts more than anything, concepts about using the drumset as a melodic instrument rather than something that merely keeps time.

 

In my experience I have noticed a couple of things. One is that when "great" musicians talk about their music, they generally speak about emotions and feelings, not chord progressions and modulations. Also, While I was in school, the kids that concentrated in theory played their instruments very technically and was almost uncomfortable even if the piece was performed well. There was no emotion in their playing. I found that sad and slightly disturbing, but hey, that's just me.

[cash]

Imagination and creativity always seem to be more important than knowledge of theory and your technical skill on the instrument on the professional level, this is why:

 

Anyone in the whole world can become a virtuoso guitar, piano, bass, or drum player. Music theory and your technical skill as a musician can be learned, whereas originality and creativity cannot be taught, and therefore are deemed more valuable.

 

I also think that Imagination and creativity come easy to people, everyone can use their imagination, whereas one must put in effort to learn the theory, nobody likes to put effort into anything...

 

And as for the fellow who disliked his music theory course. You must have had a bad teacher or something, Music Theory, classically speaking, is like a giant puzzle to me, I love figuring it out.

[caliber66]

And as for the fellow who disliked his music theory course. You must have had a bad teacher or something, Music Theory, classically speaking, is like a giant puzzle to me, I love figuring it out.

Or it just didn't appeal to him.

[lost highway]

Like it or not, all of western music uses the same chromatic scale. It's arranged into keys. You can know what key your in or not, but it doesn't make you better to not know. You can talk all the time, but it might not hurt to know you're speaking English and that it has a system of grammar.

 

Glenn is very much academically trained. He can compose melodically as well as rhythmically. Look at Mobile. It is absolutely stemming from an academic interest in rhythm. But he has said he intends on using his rhythmic experiments to create something anyone can enjoy. The two sides of the process are not mutually exclusive, thats just boxed in thinking.

 

I read an interview where Stiratt was saying having Nels and Pat was helpful when they were writing the album because they have theory knowledge. This enabled them to have a discussion whether or not a seventh chord was the appropriate color for a part of a song. Knowing chords is knowing colors, knowing what you have available to you effects how you write a song. That doesn't make Dylan any less valuable, but it also confirms that Sky Blue Sky wouldn't be what it is without music theory.

[caliber66]

but it also confirms that Sky Blue Sky wouldn't be what it is without music theory.

The most polarizing Wilco album to date?

[lost highway]

The most polarizing Wilco album to date?

 

I thought they all were.

[Atticus]

Anyone in the whole world can become a virtuoso guitar, piano, bass, or drum player.

 

[markosis]

If there are exceptions to all the rules, how can there be rules?

 

That concept goes well beyond music theory. Math comes to mind...

[mountain bed]

^^^ foolnrain, that was beautiful man. I could not have possibly said it any better.

[kafkadog]

Interesting thread. My $0.02:

 

The only person who gets to decide whether learning more music theory will make him a better songwriter is Jeff himself. He should do whatever he thinks he needs to do to continue growing as a musician and songwriter. It looks like he's figured that out already. I don't think we have anything to fear from Jeff finding new ways to challenge himself!

 

And I thought this thread was about songwriting, not technical ability on an instrument. Of course Neil Young is not the most technically gifted guitar player, but he has written some amazing melodies and chord progressions, and I seriously doubt he did it completely naively. I have the same doubt about Jeff, whether or not he has ever had any "formal" training in theory.

[tongue-tied]

i wrote a big thing on how learning music theory isn't preferable for a songwriter, but rather than walking that fine line, i have this unsupported thing to say: the idea that a songwriter such as Dylan at the height of his creative output could've done better by studying music theory is fucking silly.

[random painted highway]

I think Sky Blue Sky is wonderful because there are so many instances on the album (Walken, Sky Blue Sky, Patient With Me, and the bridge of "Either Way") where you have some very complex stuff theory-wise, but it's pulled off like its 1-4-5-4. "Shake it Off" is also hella difficult, but I think they forgot about the accessibility part with that one, so that doesn't count.

[giraffo]

I didn't really read after page 1, but I can tell you from somone in a band where the only person who even knows a scale is myself, it's really 50/50. I think it's easier to create personally if the knowledge is there at least somewhat. Maybe my ears don't hear things like some people, but I can't really sit down with a guitar and just strum chords and it turns out right...sometimes it happens. But I think it's rare. Most people making good music know the basics at the least. I don't care about Daniel Johnstons or other mentally ill peope, those are 1/100000 people that people fall victim to the hype. Our drummer learned some chords and how to play barre chords and we've even incorporated some of his songs into our "catalog". He has a better ear than me or our other bandmate and it makes it easier, without really even knowing what notes hes playing to make a semblence of an upbeat rock song.

 

edit: also, just because Neil Young is a dick when it comes to guitar solos doesn't mean he can't play guitar. his acoustic guitar playing is really good, IMO.